The driver I want to use has a 4 ohm impedance and really I definitely certainly absolutely want 8 ohms. Would it be a total disaster to put 2 drivers in series (in the same cabinet) to make 8 ohms. I know it will still produce sound obviously, but is it likely to have some kind of downside? If I used an isobaric setup would I be less likely to run into trouble?
GP.
GP.
talk about timing.....
Speaker expert, Dick Pierce, examines the best approach to take in connecting two speakers in his article, "Damping Loudspeakers in Series"
http://www.audioxpress.com/
post-HH
P.S in the same November issue
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6876
Speaker expert, Dick Pierce, examines the best approach to take in connecting two speakers in his article, "Damping Loudspeakers in Series"
http://www.audioxpress.com/
post-HH
P.S in the same November issue
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6876
Unfortunately, Fred's Audio Express link does not do much unless you are an Audio Express subscriber.
Believe it or not, there is some disagreement among audio engineers about whether Q is affected by hooking up drivers in series or parallel.
However, I ran my own tests. Hooking woofers up in series or parallel does not affect Q. The speaker will act the same as if you hooked it up singly.
As far as speaker damping, whether the amp has as much "control" over the speaker if they are hooked up in multiples, etc., I cannot say. But hooking them up in series or parallel will not affect Q factor or bass response-assuming you make the box size twice as big for two speakers as you would for one, of course.
I can only say that there are a lot of MTM speakers out there that are highly rated. If hooking woofers up together was deleterious to the sound, the MTM configuration probaby would not have caught on as well as it has.
Believe it or not, there is some disagreement among audio engineers about whether Q is affected by hooking up drivers in series or parallel.
However, I ran my own tests. Hooking woofers up in series or parallel does not affect Q. The speaker will act the same as if you hooked it up singly.
As far as speaker damping, whether the amp has as much "control" over the speaker if they are hooked up in multiples, etc., I cannot say. But hooking them up in series or parallel will not affect Q factor or bass response-assuming you make the box size twice as big for two speakers as you would for one, of course.
I can only say that there are a lot of MTM speakers out there that are highly rated. If hooking woofers up together was deleterious to the sound, the MTM configuration probaby would not have caught on as well as it has.
Unfortunately, Fred's Audio Express link does not do much unless you are an Audio Exp
Other than tell you were to find the article.
The magazine is widely available in bookstores. Forgive me for not copying it and plastering it on the web. There are are pesky little things called copyrights which I happen to believe in. And which I believe that the owner of this forum does also.
Fred
P.S.
Pehaps someone can steal the magazine from a bookstore, copy the article, and put it on your website.
Don't forget to post the review by Nelson Pass in there while your at it. I don't see as he would mind, right?
You can really save some money stealing this useful book which I have also seen at the bookstore!
http://www.keough.net/category/us/1882580338.html
Other than tell you were to find the article.
The magazine is widely available in bookstores. Forgive me for not copying it and plastering it on the web. There are are pesky little things called copyrights which I happen to believe in. And which I believe that the owner of this forum does also.Fred
P.S.
Pehaps someone can steal the magazine from a bookstore, copy the article, and put it on your website.
Don't forget to post the review by Nelson Pass in there while your at it. I don't see as he would mind, right?You can really save some money stealing this useful book which I have also seen at the bookstore!
http://www.keough.net/category/us/1882580338.html
Fred:
Most of the time when a link is given in an answer on a message board, that link actually contains the answer for the questioner.
Circlotron merely wanted to know what effect hooking up two woofers in series would have on the response, certainly a question you would expect an answer to on an audio message board. I think that most in the audio world would feel that it is not necessary to sign up for magazine subscriptions to get an answer.
While I am sure the article contains a wealth of information, it is entirely possible that that Circlotron merely wanted an overview of the situation.
I did not give a complete answer to Circlotron, but I did deal with the question of possible Q changes in series or parallel hookups, which is an important point-and apparently unknown even by some speaker engineers.
Let me also add that the spirit of sharing info, speculations and ideas on audio in a friendly atmosphere to which this board is dedicated is not even remotely served by your snidely sophomoric diatribes. If you have something to add, add it. Nobody is terribly interested in hearing how the people on this board simply drive you crazy.
Please save your satirical explorations for some more approprate forum, though I could not tell you which forum that could possibly be.
Most of the time when a link is given in an answer on a message board, that link actually contains the answer for the questioner.
Circlotron merely wanted to know what effect hooking up two woofers in series would have on the response, certainly a question you would expect an answer to on an audio message board. I think that most in the audio world would feel that it is not necessary to sign up for magazine subscriptions to get an answer.
While I am sure the article contains a wealth of information, it is entirely possible that that Circlotron merely wanted an overview of the situation.
I did not give a complete answer to Circlotron, but I did deal with the question of possible Q changes in series or parallel hookups, which is an important point-and apparently unknown even by some speaker engineers.
Let me also add that the spirit of sharing info, speculations and ideas on audio in a friendly atmosphere to which this board is dedicated is not even remotely served by your snidely sophomoric diatribes. If you have something to add, add it. Nobody is terribly interested in hearing how the people on this board simply drive you crazy.
Please save your satirical explorations for some more approprate forum, though I could not tell you which forum that could possibly be.
Snide remarks
"I think that most in the audio world would feel that it is not necessary to sign up for magazine subscriptions to get an answer."
I am so sorry, I don't know what got into me. Bad clams I think...
Allow me to submit one on isobaric loading and some others as an apology:
http://www.egbeck.de/mass3.htm
http://www.egbeck.de/wisstec2.htm
http://www.interdomain.net.au/~bodzio/
No just the one's who realize you can't learn everything in two paragraphs on a web forum. Some actually even read books on the subjects too. I would have sent him to a website on the subject but did not have one handy. You know Nelson Pass writes for that magazine also. Imagine that.
"Nobody is terribly interested in hearing how the people on this board simply drive you crazy."
Just the pompous ones, not the people that actual want to learn something. Why don't we leave it to Circlotron to decide how much he wants to know since his origional questions seemed fairly broad. I missed the part where he made you his spokesman. And I believe the snide comments started with the one you made that I started this post with. I will never apologize for attempting to point someone to in depth knowledge on a subject. I often try run a seach engine on a question instead of answering of the top of my head. More work for me, doesn't pump up my ego, but the questioner and often I learn something in the process. Thank God I didn't refer him too a book or who knows what kind of elitism I would have been acussed of! I hate to let out a secret but most real in depth information on a subject IS NOT ON THE WEB, not even in forums (populated by enthusiastic amatuers for the most part)
"While I am sure the article contains a wealth of information"
And you know this without reading it, astounding..... Most people would actually have to read it to know that. Why you must be a real wizard. I actually had to go read it to come to a conclusion.
Begones,
Fred
"I think that most in the audio world would feel that it is not necessary to sign up for magazine subscriptions to get an answer."
I am so sorry, I don't know what got into me. Bad clams I think...
Allow me to submit one on isobaric loading and some others as an apology:
http://www.egbeck.de/mass3.htm
http://www.egbeck.de/wisstec2.htm
http://www.interdomain.net.au/~bodzio/
No just the one's who realize you can't learn everything in two paragraphs on a web forum. Some actually even read books on the subjects too. I would have sent him to a website on the subject but did not have one handy. You know Nelson Pass writes for that magazine also. Imagine that.
"Nobody is terribly interested in hearing how the people on this board simply drive you crazy."
Just the pompous ones, not the people that actual want to learn something. Why don't we leave it to Circlotron to decide how much he wants to know since his origional questions seemed fairly broad. I missed the part where he made you his spokesman. And I believe the snide comments started with the one you made that I started this post with. I will never apologize for attempting to point someone to in depth knowledge on a subject. I often try run a seach engine on a question instead of answering of the top of my head. More work for me, doesn't pump up my ego, but the questioner and often I learn something in the process. Thank God I didn't refer him too a book or who knows what kind of elitism I would have been acussed of! I hate to let out a secret but most real in depth information on a subject IS NOT ON THE WEB, not even in forums (populated by enthusiastic amatuers for the most part)
"While I am sure the article contains a wealth of information"
And you know this without reading it, astounding..... Most people would actually have to read it to know that. Why you must be a real wizard. I actually had to go read it to come to a conclusion.
Begones,
Fred
Ummm. well
I looked at this question a while back and did a certain amount of research- I never came up with truly satisfactory "on paper" answer.
I finally got down to the point that I'm just going to have to hook them up both ways and do some serious listening and see if there is any discernable difference - Since stuff doesn't work out always on paper as well as one would like, you probably need to do this anyhow before locking in on just which way you're going to go.
I haven't gotten around to it, partly due to starting a long term house reneovation.
I do think you have a pretty good shot at it sounding fine, and I suspect that your results also are going to be somewhat dependent on the amp.
If someone does come up with some good info on this, it would be nice.
Ken L
I looked at this question a while back and did a certain amount of research- I never came up with truly satisfactory "on paper" answer.
I finally got down to the point that I'm just going to have to hook them up both ways and do some serious listening and see if there is any discernable difference - Since stuff doesn't work out always on paper as well as one would like, you probably need to do this anyhow before locking in on just which way you're going to go.
I haven't gotten around to it, partly due to starting a long term house reneovation.
I do think you have a pretty good shot at it sounding fine, and I suspect that your results also are going to be somewhat dependent on the amp.
If someone does come up with some good info on this, it would be nice.
Ken L
Some months back, I asked this question of a friend of mine who designs and prototypes drivers for many of the largest speaker manufacturers in America. He said that there is absolutely no drawback to connecting drivers in series except the obvious doubling of impedance - all else remains the same.
Re: Snide remarks
I think it's great that you referred him to an article on the subject, even though your link showed the article to be unavailable without a subscription or luck at the news stand. However, the statement of mine that you found "snide" was merely an acknowledgement that Circlotron was still without any immediate information on the issue of hooking two woofers up in series. My statement was: "Unfortunately, Fred's Audio Express link does not do much unless you are an Audio Express subscriber."
I followed that observation up with some information of my own that spoke to the issue. You then broke into a childish rant about the need to observe copyright laws-as if anyone was really asking you to scan and post the article.
In another thread, you lambasted everyone for paying attention to the idea of a smooth frequency response, (which has been a standard in audio for over half a century), and decried the lack of attention to room nodes in speaker design-without even bothering to tell us how individual room nodes are supposed to be knowable without special equipment or expertise.
You referred to those who disagreed with you as going unarmed in a battle of wits-a phrase that predates Liddy's reference by many years, by the way.
This is a friendly forum where people can put forth their audio ideas and speculations without fear of getting jumped on. Since many people come here for their first audio project, I think it is an atmosphere well worth preserving. Please take your emotional outbursts eslewhere on the web. There are plenty of forums where hostility and venom are the whole point. You should have no trouble finding one.
Fred Dieckmann said:
I think it's great that you referred him to an article on the subject, even though your link showed the article to be unavailable without a subscription or luck at the news stand. However, the statement of mine that you found "snide" was merely an acknowledgement that Circlotron was still without any immediate information on the issue of hooking two woofers up in series. My statement was: "Unfortunately, Fred's Audio Express link does not do much unless you are an Audio Express subscriber."
I followed that observation up with some information of my own that spoke to the issue. You then broke into a childish rant about the need to observe copyright laws-as if anyone was really asking you to scan and post the article.
In another thread, you lambasted everyone for paying attention to the idea of a smooth frequency response, (which has been a standard in audio for over half a century), and decried the lack of attention to room nodes in speaker design-without even bothering to tell us how individual room nodes are supposed to be knowable without special equipment or expertise.
You referred to those who disagreed with you as going unarmed in a battle of wits-a phrase that predates Liddy's reference by many years, by the way.
This is a friendly forum where people can put forth their audio ideas and speculations without fear of getting jumped on. Since many people come here for their first audio project, I think it is an atmosphere well worth preserving. Please take your emotional outbursts eslewhere on the web. There are plenty of forums where hostility and venom are the whole point. You should have no trouble finding one.
"even though your link showed the article to be unavailable without a subscription or luck at the news stand"
What luck???!!!!!!!! I have seen this magazine this in half a dozen bookstores.
"You then broke into a childish rant about the need to observe copyright laws-as if anyone was really asking you to scan and post the article."
And I have seen that type of thing done right here in this forum and was trying to embarass anyone ou of doing it again in this particular case and saying that they got the idea from me.
"you lambasted everyone for paying attention to the idea of a smooth frequency response"
No I said that 0.5 db was not even close to what your will measure in the real world. And it is not. I have had the same discussions about spice modeling with the caveat about modeling being no substitute for measurement, but a starting point for design IF YOU KNOW THE MODELS LIMITATIONS. Speaker design and crossover modeling are extremely tricky and can totally mislead. Go read Vance Dickason books on speaker design and find out about simulation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1882580109/avsearch-bkasin-20/104-3596960-3479962
Try reading what I write and stop trying to read in between the lines. It is not that mysterious.
Maybe you should more time on designing and less time on
whining.
In the words of W.C.Fields
Go away kid you bother me,
Fred
What luck???!!!!!!!! I have seen this magazine this in half a dozen bookstores.
"You then broke into a childish rant about the need to observe copyright laws-as if anyone was really asking you to scan and post the article."
And I have seen that type of thing done right here in this forum and was trying to embarass anyone ou of doing it again in this particular case and saying that they got the idea from me.
"you lambasted everyone for paying attention to the idea of a smooth frequency response"
No I said that 0.5 db was not even close to what your will measure in the real world. And it is not. I have had the same discussions about spice modeling with the caveat about modeling being no substitute for measurement, but a starting point for design IF YOU KNOW THE MODELS LIMITATIONS. Speaker design and crossover modeling are extremely tricky and can totally mislead. Go read Vance Dickason books on speaker design and find out about simulation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1882580109/avsearch-bkasin-20/104-3596960-3479962
Try reading what I write and stop trying to read in between the lines. It is not that mysterious.
Maybe you should more time on designing and less time on
whining.
In the words of W.C.Fields
Go away kid you bother me,
Fred
I have read the article mentioned in AudioXpress. The specific issue of putting two drivers in series is examined in depth, both from a theoretical standpoint and by making instrumented measurements. One of the conclusions was that the there is no negative impact on dampening factor.
This article is in the current issue of AudioXpress which is available for sale on news stands right now. Barnes & Nobles carries it.
Given that there is a readily available reference that explicitly answer the question I think Fred's suggestion was good and to the point. It's not like it's a 20 year old back issue.
Phil
This article is in the current issue of AudioXpress which is available for sale on news stands right now. Barnes & Nobles carries it.
Given that there is a readily available reference that explicitly answer the question I think Fred's suggestion was good and to the point. It's not like it's a 20 year old back issue.
Phil
The real scoop!
Guys,
Before you all get too bent out of shape, go read this:
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/DP_comments.html
It's one of gwad awfull geocities pages so if it is shut down, go back to it later.
Russ
Guys,
Before you all get too bent out of shape, go read this:
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/DP_comments.html
It's one of gwad awfull geocities pages so if it is shut down, go back to it later.
Russ
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