Having major problem with speakers - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Gallery Wiki Blogs Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th October 2002, 04:22 PM   #1
Bull is offline Bull  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ...........
Exclamation Having major problem with speakers

I recently bought some pa/disco speakers costing me 300 pair [new]
[AC EURO AC115].Even though iI never heard of the name Ac Euro,but the salesman told me they use Eminence drivers;Which is partially true,because
there was no wattage printed on the back or box,so I took out the drivers to see what they are rated at.
Also what puzzled me was,no warranty came with the speakers.

What I found was: 1x Eminence Beta 15,15 inch bass driver.,150w rms,8 ohm

And 1x Motorola/CTS KSN1197A piezo horn driver rated 100w max.With 30 ohm 2w resistor wired on the positive terminal.And CTS KSN1196A 15 Inch x 5 inch abs horn

The cabinet is made from good quality 1 inch plywood,and has 4 round vents in each corner instead of port tubes.
The connection on the back is dual Neutrik jack,and the the internal wire is 12 gauge ofc cable,Trapazoid cabinet,rear panel lagged with fiberglass wadding.
So everything is almost amazing,except for having a piezo and resistor,instead of compression driver and crossover.

I hope you don't get bored to kindly answer my questions;

1. I'm using a 150wrms into 8 ohm,200w rms into 4 ohm amp
Gemini X2 poweramp.I know 150w rms
[unclipped]into a 150w rms speaker drives it cleanly,but i'm worried about blowing up the piezo which is only rated 100 w max,i dread to think what the rms value is,something 50w rms in suspect.But with a resistor of 2w 30 ohm,would this make the piezo able to handle 150w rms.

2. I don't understand why a 2w 30 ohm resistor is used on a piezo,when piezos are supposed to not need a crossover.

3. I have to boost the mid and treble eq on my mixer because otherwise,it sounds muffled,no clear midrange,hardly any treble,just booming bass.The piezo isn't blown,but it is sure much quieter than bass driver output.

4. Would replacing the piezo with a Eminence APT50 Compression horn driver and crossover,improve the awful treble responce,and non-exsistant midrange.

5. Do 15 inch bass drivers,with a freq of 35hz-4khz produce any midrange,such as vocals and warmth and hidden sound effects in the music.

6. Also last but not least,I play mostly drum and bass,reggae,garage. All with very heavy basslines,and nice synith effects.But the electronic effects are hidden in the background,unlike when you boost the mid and treble eqs and you can hear more detail,effects become louder,but can this damage my speakers in the lomg term played at high volume.

I dj in rooms about 6m long,by 5m wide.
My setup is 2x Technics 1210 decks,Gemini ps626 mixer,Gemini x2 poweramp,Ac Euro Ac115 speakers,and PROEL speaker cable and interconnects.
Please help me out,because i'm only a student,with not much money,and djing monthly gives me not much money to earn a living,as well as University costs,and food,etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2002, 04:39 PM   #2
nar is offline nar
diyAudio Member
nar's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: near the sea
I hope I can answer your questions!!!...

1.The resistor series with the Piezo is to protect your amp against the high capacitance of every piezo driver.It doesn't mean that it will lower the power reaching the piezo!!!At least i would recommand 10R/20W resistor.The impedance of your piezo is around 1000 R.Its capacitance 200-400 pF
Don't be afraid to breake them.In fact it's a reliable technology.Even if sound is .....(censored)


3.Replacing them with good 2'' compression drivers would be a good upgrade.Then go for Eminence or better some Radian.You will have to make a crossover at 800 Hz for both bass and compression,and adjust sensivity of compression with attenuator.

Hope your questions answered...


"... Audio needs the thinnest wire ..." Rowan McCombe ... I hear it !!!
"Just 'cause they can't hear or sense it themselves doesn't mean you can't !" Allen Wright Allen was right ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 01:08 AM   #3
diyAudio Moderator
planet10's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
The R in series with the piezo is essentially an XO -- a lot of the bad rap piezos get is from being used with no XO. The piezo can be made to sound quite reasonable with a few mods. An XO is one (see below). Others are to disassemble them and treat the cone -- dammar is probably good here. A little bit of damping on the inside of the chamber probably won't hurt. And all the plastic bits need to be damped. I use dust seal.


(cut and paste, most of the below information credited to JON RISCH)
The Parts Express catalog suggests putting a 20-Ohm resister inline with any Piezo tweeter to make it a more stable load for an amp.Will this not also attenuate the tweeter? If so, and if I need further attenuation, can I simply add more resistance? Is there a rule of thumb for how much attenuation I will get with further resistance, or a way to compute this number?

The recommended resistor is to help protect the amplifier from oscillating due to the raw capacitance that is a piezo driver. Adding resistance in series with a piezo will actually roll off the highs a bit, adding more will roll off the highs noticably. To attenuate a piezo, add a series cap, which creates a voltage divider with the capacitance that is the piezo drive element. Most piezo elements run in the 0.1 to 0.26 uF range, so a cap of the same value as the piezo element will attenuate it 6 dB.

Piezo's can be crossed over, and to great advantage. I have often thought that some of the bad rap piezo drivers have is due to the "you can use them without a crossover" fallacy. Yes, you _can_ use them without a crossover, but just because you can get away with it, does not mean it is optimal.

Since most piezo's are used in inexpensive systems, the cost of adding in "unecessary" components is often never even considered.

How to crossover a piezo:
Add a resistor in parallel, and the driver can be made to look like a current driven device to any outside components, such as a crossover cap. However, to keep costs and power dissipation down, 8 ohms is way too small of a value. The impedance of most piezo's is still quite high at 20KHz, so use a 22 ohm resistor, this makes any series crossover cap smaller and less expensive, and the resistor dissipates less energy. Use of an 8 ohm parallel resistor will also tend to lose you a little bit of output level.

For most piezos, use of a 22 ohm resistor, and a 4-4.7 uF cap will allow the response to be identical to what it was in stock form, but rolls off the lows at 6 dB/oct below 1 kHz or so. This actually increases the power handling of the piezo, as it is voltage limited. Exceed the voltage used to pole (polarize the piezo element during manufacture) the unit, and it will loose sensitivity, and eventually burn out. Most pro grade piezos will handle 35 volt transients, and 28 volts continuous, which are 150 watts and 100 watts into 8 ohms respectively.

Add in a capacitor and 22 ohm resistor, and the power handling could effectively be quadrupled, as the LF voltages are not imposed upon the unit, just the HF voltages.

Piezo's crossed over in this manner don't sound as harsh and spity, and tend to be quite a bit more reliable. Many of the piezo units have a mild peak just before they roll off in the LF, so making the series cap a little smaller can actualy flatten response, and provide even more protection and smoother sound. For the smaller piezo units that cut off at 4-5 kHz, a series cap of 1.5 uF will do the trick, larger units that go down to 3 kHz can use a 2.2 uF, and the large compression driver units meant to be mounted on a horn need about 5 uF, as they do not peak, and any higher would lose the sloping output even more.

Attenuation, HF roll-off AND the crossing over can all be done at the same time. To attenuate, place a cap in between the piezo and the 22 ohm resistor that is shunting across the unit, then if HF roll-off is desired, use a series resistor in this location too. Then the series crossover cap should be in front of the 22 ohm shunt.

Looking from the amp, first the series crossover cap, say 4 uF, then the 22 ohm shunt from hot to ground, then a series cap of about 0.15 uF for 6 dB attenuation, and then a series resistor of about 30-50 ohms to tame the very top end, then the piezo itself.
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 05:29 AM   #4
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
Motorola first came out with piezoelectric speakers. CTS bought out Motorola's part of the business. The speakers are still being made in Motorola's plant in Albaquerque, New Mexico where they always were made, so apparently the "buyout" has little affect on the actual production of the speakers themselves.

CTS has an "application note" that goes into crossover principles, among other things. Essentially it says the same thing as Planet 10, but in greater detail.

  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 05:40 AM   #5
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
The KSN 1197 horn driver, presumably mounted to the 1196 horn, is listed at the CTS website with a sensitivity of 92 dB. They are actually running on much less than a watt, but fitted to an 8 ohm woofer, they will play at 92 dB when you are sending the 8 ohm speaker one watt.

The Eminence woofer is near 100 dB at one watt, so it seems you have a mismatch.

Adding another piezo horn/driver combo in parallel with the existing one will boost your tweeter sensitivity 6 dB-up to near where the Eminence Beta is. That is probably the biggest part of your problem right there, I would guess.

  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 06:07 AM   #6
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
Some time ago, I sent away to Motorola and got a stack of flyers for their various models since then. I do not have the 1197 driver, but I do have the 1086 driver flyer. This might well be similar.

This 1086 driver is designed to play through an ElectroVoice horn. I wonder if the KSN 1196 horn is not similar to the ElectroVoice.

At any rate, I thought I would include the frequency response chart for the 1086 in case they are similar.

Note: the measurements were conducted, for some reason, with 2.83 V, (1 watt for an 8 ohm speaker) at a distance of one half meter, instead of one meter which it normally is. Therefore, the reading will be 6 dB higher than normal.

In other words, this speaker is playing around 94 dB, not 100 dB, for most of it's range, (except above 10,000 Hz).

If such a speaker were mated to your Eminence Beta 15's, they would indeed be shy in the midrange/treble area. Unless they were hooked up in parallel with a second driver/horn combo.
Attached Images
File Type: gif piezo 1086a horn.gif (7.0 KB, 575 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 06:14 AM   #7
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
Finally, I just want to add that a DJ friend of mine has a 3 cubic foot ported box with a single Eminence Kappa 15 in it. He has TWO KSN 1165A's hooked up in parallel, to increase the sensitivity to match the Eminence 15. He has two of these enclosures, each one with one Eminence and two KSN 1165A's in it. The KSN 1165A is quite inexpensive.

He says it works quite well.

I know your enclosure already has the cutout for the larger horn, but I just hought I would pass that along.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 07:41 AM   #8
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
Well, Bull, I did some research.

The AC Euro 115 website gives the dimensions of the cabinet. Assuming it is one inch thich plywood, the internal volume should be something around 2.2 cubic feet.

The AC Euro site did not give frequency response charts.

The Eminence site gave the chart for the Beta 15. It is below. You will see a huge peak at 2,000 Hz.

I ran the parameters for the Beta in a closed and a ported box, tuned to 50 Hz-most PA systems are tuned to about that.

The blue line is the lower frequency response for a closed box of 2.2 cubic ft.

The red line is the response for the 2.2 cubic ft. box tuned to 50 Hz.

As you can see, there is a pronounced hump in the response around 100 Hz. When you add it to the huge peak at 2,000 Hz that the Eminence gives, you have a reaponse with two pronounced peaks, one in the midbass and one in the treble. The midrange will suffer in comparison.

Here is the response for the Eminence. Only the response above 200 need be noticed here-the bass is not important in this graph.
Attached Images
File Type: gif eminence beta.gif (25.4 KB, 554 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 07:44 AM   #9
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
And here is the graph of the bass range, in both sealed and vented boxes.

When added to the Eminence graph, you see you have a pronounced valley in the response centered on 500 Hz-right smack in the midrange.
Attached Images
File Type: gif eminence beta 15 low freq.gif (4.1 KB, 539 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2002, 12:54 PM   #10
Bull is offline Bull  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ...........
Lightbulb reply

I've just thought i could replace the CTS KSN1197A piezo driver rated 100w max with a CTS KSN1188A rated 400w max and over[which is a Powerline piezo driver with built in PTC resistor and Tungsten bulb]The frequency responce is amazing 800hz-20khz,sens 1w/1m 93 db.
Also the CTS KSN1141 can be considered,as it is a Powerline piezo driver with bulit in protection circuit,rated 400w max and over[because PTC resistor draws current,and to avoid the drop in db,it runs though a tungsten bulb].I've have been told this effect is simular to a level compressor.
They are quite cheap to buy each. 22 each for the CTS KSN1197A,
Which would cost me 44 + the two 20w 20 ohm resistors needed.
Or 10 each for the CTS KSN1188A.
Which would cost me 20 and no extra resistors would be needed,because the more expensive one, is a mid/treble piezo.
  Reply With Quote


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Major Hum Problem steve080 Tubes / Valves 5 15th December 2008 01:42 AM
Gaps in my horn - a major problem? wixy Full Range 6 7th September 2007 12:18 AM
GainClone troubleshooting, major problem phorensic Chip Amps 6 13th June 2006 02:00 PM
new to this need major help building simple speakers newtothis Full Range 7 2nd September 2005 06:41 PM

New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:30 PM.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2017 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2