Re: Re: Re: Bookshelf speakers
I'm not all that familiar with the VIFA line... Madisound has a similar tweeter* for about $25, and the P13 is $37. Add a cap and you are in the $130 region for a set of drivers. You could even add a 2nd bass driver (use on the back for BSC) and still be just over $200 ... i haven't heard the Frias design, but it would have to be very good to beat this combo.
*the trick is to get one of the chambered ones that goes low, is the same sensitivity, and doesn't have any nasties to worry about. I'm sure that their are a few others that would fit the criteria.
The TLb uses this combo.
And my buddy Chris replaced the ceramic Linn Tweeters on his Dalines with a tweaked set of the same tweeters (amazing what a little TLC will do). He started out with an optimum flat, many part XO, and ended up with a single cap (in his words, the "trick XO strangled the life out of em").
Lynn Olsen uses the same VIFAs in his Aerials with a big buck ScanSpeak tweeter (the tweaked VIFA is a lot closer to the ScanSpeak than they would like you to know).
Still, the VIFA/VIFA combo still doesn't do some of the things that the FE103A does in a Buschorn -- pictured below with the Radio Shack version of the FE103 -- with or without a supertweeter (and that represents $20 to $100 in drivers depending on how you score your FE103As and what tweeter you use --Chris's Dalines have been relegated to the HT downstairs). The not quite as good, but available FE103E is $32 each and the FE108ES is $85 (In a head to head the predessesor of this -- the FE108Sigma -- is very close, but different, to the FE103A, it's a toss-up). The FE206 is about the same price as the FE108ES-- just have a look here and the FR Forum for comments on this.
dave
DIY_Peter said:
I'm not all that familiar with the VIFA line... Madisound has a similar tweeter* for about $25, and the P13 is $37. Add a cap and you are in the $130 region for a set of drivers. You could even add a 2nd bass driver (use on the back for BSC) and still be just over $200 ... i haven't heard the Frias design, but it would have to be very good to beat this combo.
*the trick is to get one of the chambered ones that goes low, is the same sensitivity, and doesn't have any nasties to worry about. I'm sure that their are a few others that would fit the criteria.
The TLb uses this combo.
And my buddy Chris replaced the ceramic Linn Tweeters on his Dalines with a tweaked set of the same tweeters (amazing what a little TLC will do). He started out with an optimum flat, many part XO, and ended up with a single cap (in his words, the "trick XO strangled the life out of em").
Lynn Olsen uses the same VIFAs in his Aerials with a big buck ScanSpeak tweeter (the tweaked VIFA is a lot closer to the ScanSpeak than they would like you to know).
Still, the VIFA/VIFA combo still doesn't do some of the things that the FE103A does in a Buschorn -- pictured below with the Radio Shack version of the FE103 -- with or without a supertweeter (and that represents $20 to $100 in drivers depending on how you score your FE103As and what tweeter you use --Chris's Dalines have been relegated to the HT downstairs). The not quite as good, but available FE103E is $32 each and the FE108ES is $85 (In a head to head the predessesor of this -- the FE108Sigma -- is very close, but different, to the FE103A, it's a toss-up). The FE206 is about the same price as the FE108ES-- just have a look here and the FR Forum for comments on this.
dave
Attachments
The drivers mentioned
Hi everybody,
Thanks everybody for your thoughts and suggestions and opinions which has made me to delve even more further in our pursuit of sourcing the components. Actually I am bit unaware of the components which have been mentioned by Planet10, Soundquest & navin et al. so I will just study the finer details of those items and then will be able to fix something correctly.
And in my earlier post what I had actually meant was the drivers which are available in India like Eminence, EV and others actually gives us variety of options for using it in our projects. I had just gone through about some of the drivers from EV those are having very good specs. But some drivers may be little expensive but we have brands like Eminence which are very cost effective. Does anybody have something to share about that.
Please feel free to share.
Thanks
Avguy
Hi everybody,
Thanks everybody for your thoughts and suggestions and opinions which has made me to delve even more further in our pursuit of sourcing the components. Actually I am bit unaware of the components which have been mentioned by Planet10, Soundquest & navin et al. so I will just study the finer details of those items and then will be able to fix something correctly.
And in my earlier post what I had actually meant was the drivers which are available in India like Eminence, EV and others actually gives us variety of options for using it in our projects. I had just gone through about some of the drivers from EV those are having very good specs. But some drivers may be little expensive but we have brands like Eminence which are very cost effective. Does anybody have something to share about that.
Please feel free to share.
Thanks
Avguy
Banned
Joined 2002
Hi everyone,
I'm looking at building a pair of Ed Frias DIY bookshelf speaker that SoundQuest mentioned in post #9 but haven't been able to find a supplier of the 812687 tweeter. WES Components stock the 810653 which is similar and I would like to know if it is possible to use it in place of the 812687? If not does anyone know of a supplier in Aus for the 812687.
Cheers
I'm looking at building a pair of Ed Frias DIY bookshelf speaker that SoundQuest mentioned in post #9 but haven't been able to find a supplier of the 812687 tweeter. WES Components stock the 810653 which is similar and I would like to know if it is possible to use it in place of the 812687? If not does anyone know of a supplier in Aus for the 812687.
Cheers
Availability of the speakers mentioned
Thanks Dave
I went through your website where lot of projects have been mentioned. Out of that which do you prefer most ? If you can let us know your opinion it will be quite helpful.
And Out of the driver models which you have mentioned earlier in this post which of them are exactly available in India. Do anybody have any details regarding that.
Navin do you have any information on the drivers which Dave has mentioned ? Because sourcing that is quite difficult from outside India.
Just let us know your opinion too.
Thanks
Avguy
Thanks Dave
I went through your website where lot of projects have been mentioned. Out of that which do you prefer most ? If you can let us know your opinion it will be quite helpful.
And Out of the driver models which you have mentioned earlier in this post which of them are exactly available in India. Do anybody have any details regarding that.
Navin do you have any information on the drivers which Dave has mentioned ? Because sourcing that is quite difficult from outside India.
Just let us know your opinion too.
Thanks
Avguy
India
Hi avguy,
Any reason why you would not consider just ordering a professionally designed kit from a supplier here in the states?
We ship our kits to other countries on a regular basis. I have even shipped kits to India.
Shipping is not that bad in some cases. USPS rates are pretty good so are Bax Global.
You might can get it there cheaper than you think.
As for drivers available there in India I will have to second Navin's suggestion regarding Peerless of India.
I don't know if there is a source for them there in small quantities though.
Their off the self drivers are not quite to the level of what we have them produce for us but still they are very good. I sampled some of their tweeters too and found one of them to be not bad at all.
I don't believe I can go along with Soundquest's recommendation though.
I was given a pair of those speakers to fix (upgrade).
I was not all that impressed. See info here about the upgrade: http://www.gr-research.com/edspeaker.htm
We also offer a kit in that same price range, and having heard them side by side I certainly can't echo Soundquests opinion.
Hey Dave,
I see you like T-lines.
Having just designed our first kit using a T-line design, I am now sold on them. I love them!
See our A/V-3 transmission line design: http://www.gr-research.com/performer/av3.htm
If you want to just look at the enclosure plans I will be glad to send them over to you via e-mail.
Also are you going to go to the Northwest DIY event in a few weeks: http://www.creativesound.ca/northwestdiy2003.html
It's in your neck of the woods.
I few of our designs that Creative Sound Solutions offers will be there I do believe.
Hi avguy,
Any reason why you would not consider just ordering a professionally designed kit from a supplier here in the states?
We ship our kits to other countries on a regular basis. I have even shipped kits to India.
Shipping is not that bad in some cases. USPS rates are pretty good so are Bax Global.
You might can get it there cheaper than you think.
As for drivers available there in India I will have to second Navin's suggestion regarding Peerless of India.
I don't know if there is a source for them there in small quantities though.
Their off the self drivers are not quite to the level of what we have them produce for us but still they are very good. I sampled some of their tweeters too and found one of them to be not bad at all.
I don't believe I can go along with Soundquest's recommendation though.
I was given a pair of those speakers to fix (upgrade).
I was not all that impressed. See info here about the upgrade: http://www.gr-research.com/edspeaker.htm
We also offer a kit in that same price range, and having heard them side by side I certainly can't echo Soundquests opinion.
Hey Dave,
I see you like T-lines.
Having just designed our first kit using a T-line design, I am now sold on them. I love them!
See our A/V-3 transmission line design: http://www.gr-research.com/performer/av3.htm
If you want to just look at the enclosure plans I will be glad to send them over to you via e-mail.
Also are you going to go to the Northwest DIY event in a few weeks: http://www.creativesound.ca/northwestdiy2003.html
It's in your neck of the woods.
I few of our designs that Creative Sound Solutions offers will be there I do believe.
the biggest problem i have with importing anything is the duties and taxes that compund so that we end up paying an equiv.of 2-2.5 times the CIF price.
a kit that has a CIF of $500 will attract $125-150 as duty, then there are local sales taxes that are about 16-20% (depending on state) of the CIF+duty so that is another $100 and for us in Bombay there is an additional tax that is about 5% of the CIF+duty+local tax (add another $50) so a $500 kit ends up costing $800 + local hassles of bribing the customs officer so that they confirm that the prices you have declared are correct, transportation etc...
what i do is network a bit. i once got a bunch of dynaudio drivers at US retail cost (i suspect the importer had undervalued the drivers) because the importer had imported these drivers to build some sample sysmtes and then decided not to get into the home audio business (he does a lot of PA work).
On another occasion another manufacturer imported sheidled as well as non sheilded drivers from Vifa. He managed to sell the non shielded drivers but was stuck with a bunch of shielded Vifa. I took the shielded Vifa of his hands if he would permit me to buy a pair of non shielded Vifa's too. so i got my center and left and right and still have a pair of 6" and 1" shielded Vifa drivers for later use. I paid Rs 700 ($15) for a 6" Vifa TC series woofer. I dont know what the retails price is in the US.
CMM at one time imported Focal anf Morel drivers. I missed that opportunity.
When we import a professionally designed kit we pay duties on the drivers, design, etc... the compuonding effect of these duties hurts. by designing ourselves we learna bit and pay as little duty as possible.
a kit that has a CIF of $500 will attract $125-150 as duty, then there are local sales taxes that are about 16-20% (depending on state) of the CIF+duty so that is another $100 and for us in Bombay there is an additional tax that is about 5% of the CIF+duty+local tax (add another $50) so a $500 kit ends up costing $800 + local hassles of bribing the customs officer so that they confirm that the prices you have declared are correct, transportation etc...
what i do is network a bit. i once got a bunch of dynaudio drivers at US retail cost (i suspect the importer had undervalued the drivers) because the importer had imported these drivers to build some sample sysmtes and then decided not to get into the home audio business (he does a lot of PA work).
On another occasion another manufacturer imported sheidled as well as non sheilded drivers from Vifa. He managed to sell the non shielded drivers but was stuck with a bunch of shielded Vifa. I took the shielded Vifa of his hands if he would permit me to buy a pair of non shielded Vifa's too. so i got my center and left and right and still have a pair of 6" and 1" shielded Vifa drivers for later use. I paid Rs 700 ($15) for a 6" Vifa TC series woofer. I dont know what the retails price is in the US.
CMM at one time imported Focal anf Morel drivers. I missed that opportunity.
When we import a professionally designed kit we pay duties on the drivers, design, etc... the compuonding effect of these duties hurts. by designing ourselves we learna bit and pay as little duty as possible.
Gr Research Vs. Ed Frias bookshelf
I have serious doubts that the GR Research modified Ed Frias speaker sounds as good or is even approaching the sound quality of the Ed Frias bookshelf. No offense Danny but I really do think your motives are suspect... fact is you profit from making such commments
"I was given a pair of those speakers to fix (upgrade).
I was not all that impressed. See info here about the upgrade: http://www.gr-research.com/edspeaker.htm
We also offer a kit in that same price range, and having heard them side by side I certainly can't echo Soundquests opinion.
"
I read reviews on both your speaker Danny and the Ed Frias Speaker. The result...the Ed Frias won all three reviews and I might add the reviewing sessions were performed sicentifically by three respected and seasoned audiophiles.
My personal opinion of the Ed Frias bookshelf speaker again is that for it's price and sound quality it can not be touched.
I have serious doubts that the GR Research modified Ed Frias speaker sounds as good or is even approaching the sound quality of the Ed Frias bookshelf. No offense Danny but I really do think your motives are suspect... fact is you profit from making such commments
"I was given a pair of those speakers to fix (upgrade).
I was not all that impressed. See info here about the upgrade: http://www.gr-research.com/edspeaker.htm
We also offer a kit in that same price range, and having heard them side by side I certainly can't echo Soundquests opinion.
"
I read reviews on both your speaker Danny and the Ed Frias Speaker. The result...the Ed Frias won all three reviews and I might add the reviewing sessions were performed sicentifically by three respected and seasoned audiophiles.
My personal opinion of the Ed Frias bookshelf speaker again is that for it's price and sound quality it can not be touched.
Hi SoundQuest,
I haven't listened to the Ed Frias kit but I do not believe Danny put down the kit in the interest of making money off it. I recalled reading over some posts where Wayne of www.speakerbuilder.net, who makes no profit whatsoever btw, also found problems with this set. Like I said, I haven't heard them myself but I find no reason for these two designers to criticize this particular design without cause. Maybe there is a difference in taste or goals, I don't know. =/
I haven't listened to the Ed Frias kit but I do not believe Danny put down the kit in the interest of making money off it. I recalled reading over some posts where Wayne of www.speakerbuilder.net, who makes no profit whatsoever btw, also found problems with this set. Like I said, I haven't heard them myself but I find no reason for these two designers to criticize this particular design without cause. Maybe there is a difference in taste or goals, I don't know. =/
Speakers
Dang Navin,
Sorry to heard about the tax and duty issues over there. It's no wonder I am asked to under value shipments over there.
That is really excessive.
Good luck with your projects over there. I wish I could be of more help.
Soundquest,
I don't want to get into a debate over opinions regarding this or that, but I have only seen the opposite.
When our similarly priced A/V-1's were compared to the AR DIY speakers at our event last year it wasn't that much of a comparison.
Everyone liked the A/V-1 better.
The AR DIY had a problem of allow the drivers to be out of phase in the crossover region.
This gives an airy unfocused sound that some like as apposed to the pin point imaging that a more accurate speaker can deliver.
But this leaves a hole in the response, especially if you stand up. The hole gets pretty large as it can be seen from the measurements I took.
My measurements have been confirmed by others as well.
I have exchanged e-mails with Ed about it and he did some re-designing of the AR DIY after I posted my measurements. He seams to feel he has now improved upon it.
Ed and I have also talked on the phone a few times. I like Ed and think him to be good for the DIY community. I have no desire to bash or belittle his work, so don't take it as such.
Ed designed his speaker in a way that he likes it to his ears. He has little in the way of measuring equipment and relies almost solely on his ears. So he has little means of identifying or correcting phase and time arrival issues.
But again, he likes it. He is happy and many of the people how have built the speakers are happy, and if you are happy too then that's great. But having heard them myself and having been asked to upgrade a pair, I can't in any way agree with your opinion.
What you are referring to was comparisons made by Ed and his colleagues of Ed's latest version designed after my upgrade compared to the upgraded version I made of his design.
It was not a comparison to one of our products or kits that we offer.
Others who made the same comparison liked the more accurate response of the update that we offered, including a company that sells it as a kit.
To each his own. That is why there are so many different speakers out there.
Also, I only offered the upgrade to those interested because it was a free design offered by Ed. It was not a model that he sells, or I would not have made public the information. It's a free design from Ed and a free upgrade offered by me. You can build whichever or whatever version you like. Either way it bothers me not.
If I felt for any reason it could compete in performance with the similarly priced products we offer I wouldn't have offered the upgrade to others for free now would I?
Don't be too upset when others don't share your opinion.
Dang Navin,
Sorry to heard about the tax and duty issues over there. It's no wonder I am asked to under value shipments over there.
That is really excessive.
Good luck with your projects over there. I wish I could be of more help.
Soundquest,
I don't want to get into a debate over opinions regarding this or that, but I have only seen the opposite.
When our similarly priced A/V-1's were compared to the AR DIY speakers at our event last year it wasn't that much of a comparison.
Everyone liked the A/V-1 better.
The AR DIY had a problem of allow the drivers to be out of phase in the crossover region.
This gives an airy unfocused sound that some like as apposed to the pin point imaging that a more accurate speaker can deliver.
But this leaves a hole in the response, especially if you stand up. The hole gets pretty large as it can be seen from the measurements I took.
My measurements have been confirmed by others as well.
I have exchanged e-mails with Ed about it and he did some re-designing of the AR DIY after I posted my measurements. He seams to feel he has now improved upon it.
Ed and I have also talked on the phone a few times. I like Ed and think him to be good for the DIY community. I have no desire to bash or belittle his work, so don't take it as such.
Ed designed his speaker in a way that he likes it to his ears. He has little in the way of measuring equipment and relies almost solely on his ears. So he has little means of identifying or correcting phase and time arrival issues.
But again, he likes it. He is happy and many of the people how have built the speakers are happy, and if you are happy too then that's great. But having heard them myself and having been asked to upgrade a pair, I can't in any way agree with your opinion.
What you are referring to was comparisons made by Ed and his colleagues of Ed's latest version designed after my upgrade compared to the upgraded version I made of his design.
It was not a comparison to one of our products or kits that we offer.
Others who made the same comparison liked the more accurate response of the update that we offered, including a company that sells it as a kit.
To each his own. That is why there are so many different speakers out there.
Also, I only offered the upgrade to those interested because it was a free design offered by Ed. It was not a model that he sells, or I would not have made public the information. It's a free design from Ed and a free upgrade offered by me. You can build whichever or whatever version you like. Either way it bothers me not.
If I felt for any reason it could compete in performance with the similarly priced products we offer I wouldn't have offered the upgrade to others for free now would I?
Don't be too upset when others don't share your opinion.
Information
Thanks Danny,
For your clarifications and the information on how you have compared and given your views regarding Ed s speakers. But tell me onething the most upgraded design where is it available. I searched your website but could not find it. I will be interested in the kit which is available. And that has to be sent to India.
And you know the things which our friend Navin had referred too.
Regards,
avguy
Thanks Danny,
For your clarifications and the information on how you have compared and given your views regarding Ed s speakers. But tell me onething the most upgraded design where is it available. I searched your website but could not find it. I will be interested in the kit which is available. And that has to be sent to India.
And you know the things which our friend Navin had referred too.
Regards,
avguy
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