Let's say that all of these designs are state of the art and near perfection (i.e. ignore individual designs). These prices are for a pair of speakers.
The overall question being, is 300 spent only 30% of a 1000 dollar project, or is more like 90%? Where does the law of diminishing returns kick in, in DIY audio?
How much difference is there between a 300 dollar and 500 dollar project, how much from a 500 to 1000 dollar project?
The overall question being, is 300 spent only 30% of a 1000 dollar project, or is more like 90%? Where does the law of diminishing returns kick in, in DIY audio?
How much difference is there between a 300 dollar and 500 dollar project, how much from a 500 to 1000 dollar project?
Alright, well let's make it more specific.
I am thinking about making a Dave Brown 717TL with Dayton RS drivers. Would this compare favorably with the Seas Thor (well, I know there is some problems with the Thor, but a transmission line of equal quality, with much nicer drivers like Seas Excel, etc).
i.e. would a 717TL hold over my lust for high end speakers until I get out of college (2 years), or after 3-6 months would I be wanting to upgrade?
I am thinking about making a Dave Brown 717TL with Dayton RS drivers. Would this compare favorably with the Seas Thor (well, I know there is some problems with the Thor, but a transmission line of equal quality, with much nicer drivers like Seas Excel, etc).
i.e. would a 717TL hold over my lust for high end speakers until I get out of college (2 years), or after 3-6 months would I be wanting to upgrade?
bjackson said:
IMO unless you listen to something vastly superior then it should do just fine
I was very happy with my 3 Way speakers (which have lots of flaws) for many years, until one day I heard about $100,000+ worth of speakers, source and amplification..... after that I thought that they sounded completely awfull!!!! after a week or two though they didn't sound so bad once again. To put things in perspective, the total cost of my system at the time was probably about $1650, the speakers (diy) being about $800 of that, the amp (diy) $400 and the cd player $450).
note that my $800 3 ways are in no way optimal and were thrown together when I had very little idea what I was doing..... the mids are not well matched to the woofers, and the crossovers are stock ones that have not been tweaked, so a well designed $800 DIY speaker would sound a LOT better
Tony.
bjackson said:
This is a quesion I was grappling with quite a bit during my project. I think what you really need to ask is "where is the best money spent" not how much..
For example, if you spend $500 on speaker drivers and $100 on a crossover. Then spending an additional $200 to upgrade drivers probably won't buy you as much as spending the same money on the crossover. Likewise, if you drive the pair with an integrated receiver, you would probably get the most gain by upgrading to seperate amps... Also the upgrade may not be linear improvment. IE, if you start spending like $300-$400 on crossover parts you're probably hitting diminishing returns. IMHO the next big step may be switching to an active crossover however this would require serious investments in amplifiers.
I believe you're better off with all your components (source, amps, crossovers, speakers) at the 85% mark then trying to get 99% speakers and neglecting the rest.. That being said, $200 on amplifiers doesn't buy you the same quality as $200 on speakers. So you need to balance he overall quality of the components not the $$ spent..
HTH
--Chris
Re: Re: Re: Prices, in general
Dave has identified one of the ways to get better BFTB, but there are others. Used, vintage gear can be purchased for pennies on the dollar if you look hard enough. A couple of years back I came across a Sansui AU-7900 integrated amp at St. Vinnie's for $19.95, but since it was 25% off day, I got it for $15. It sounded lousy until I used contact cleaner on the volume pot and switches.
At the Amplifier Shoot-out our Stereo Club held last year it was bested by a new Moon amp and a highly modified Scott 222 tube amp (196x ?). It did beat a lot of much newer, expensive amps including the Club's own Conrad-Johnson amp. I also have a chip amp that sounds pretty good, I'm not sure it's better than the Sansui, it's pretty much a toss-up.
For speakers, there are a lot of DIY designs that are pretty good. At the recent Seattle DIY Meet, Dave Rosgaard brough 2 pairs of identical speakers.......... well almost. One pair used "cheap" crossover componets and the other pair had the "good stuff" utilized in the same topography. Nobody was told what the difference was, just that they were different, and they were asked which one was better. Guess what? Most people couldn't really hear a difference.
The one area that really "can" make a difference, IMHO, is the inductors. I'd use large guage, air core coils, as that seems to be the one componet that really can be heard with carefull listening, at least at higher volume.
I could go on about building passive "preamps" using cheap Radio Shack pots (or ALPS for a little more), etc., but this forum has plenty of projects and ideas that are fairly inexpensive. And don't spend a lot on wires, it takes a system with absolutely superb resolution to really enable you to hear any difference at all, regardless what the Audio Rags say.
To put it in perspective, my personal reference system has a total of slightly over a Hundred Dollars ($100.00 USD) invested. I've got other and more expensive stuff, but this one is satisfactory in a way that many other systems don't quite approach.
YMMV,
Best Regards,
TerryO
planet10 said:
Dave has identified one of the ways to get better BFTB, but there are others. Used, vintage gear can be purchased for pennies on the dollar if you look hard enough. A couple of years back I came across a Sansui AU-7900 integrated amp at St. Vinnie's for $19.95, but since it was 25% off day, I got it for $15. It sounded lousy until I used contact cleaner on the volume pot and switches.
At the Amplifier Shoot-out our Stereo Club held last year it was bested by a new Moon amp and a highly modified Scott 222 tube amp (196x ?). It did beat a lot of much newer, expensive amps including the Club's own Conrad-Johnson amp. I also have a chip amp that sounds pretty good, I'm not sure it's better than the Sansui, it's pretty much a toss-up.
For speakers, there are a lot of DIY designs that are pretty good. At the recent Seattle DIY Meet, Dave Rosgaard brough 2 pairs of identical speakers.......... well almost. One pair used "cheap" crossover componets and the other pair had the "good stuff" utilized in the same topography. Nobody was told what the difference was, just that they were different, and they were asked which one was better. Guess what? Most people couldn't really hear a difference.
The one area that really "can" make a difference, IMHO, is the inductors. I'd use large guage, air core coils, as that seems to be the one componet that really can be heard with carefull listening, at least at higher volume.
I could go on about building passive "preamps" using cheap Radio Shack pots (or ALPS for a little more), etc., but this forum has plenty of projects and ideas that are fairly inexpensive. And don't spend a lot on wires, it takes a system with absolutely superb resolution to really enable you to hear any difference at all, regardless what the Audio Rags say.
To put it in perspective, my personal reference system has a total of slightly over a Hundred Dollars ($100.00 USD) invested. I've got other and more expensive stuff, but this one is satisfactory in a way that many other systems don't quite approach.
YMMV,
Best Regards,
TerryO
Well, I guess I am wondering how much it'd cost to make a pair of loudspeakers that would be up their with the top of the line designs.
There is no way I can go for a budget of more than 1200-1500 of pair right now (I'm a college student! and I can't even afford that right now. I'd have to save up!). If I can't make something that is 99% of a really great loudspeaker for that budget, I figure I might as well make something for 300 bucks or so that's 85-90% of it... you know?
There is no way I can go for a budget of more than 1200-1500 of pair right now (I'm a college student! and I can't even afford that right now. I'd have to save up!). If I can't make something that is 99% of a really great loudspeaker for that budget, I figure I might as well make something for 300 bucks or so that's 85-90% of it... you know?
Cal Weldon said:
Build the perfect, the best ever, pair of speakers for 1000$.
Do the same thing with 10000$.
The difference will be noticeable yes, but very very small.
Let say you dump about 800$ in drivers, if they are already the best drivers ever, you're already at the top, what the next 9000$ will bring? Maybe better finish with Maple inserts in White Marble panels, so what? Same SQ.
Alright, here is a somewhat unrelated question.
If you had 400 to spend on a pair of mids that had to be able to cross over at 400-600hz, and 4-6khz, what would you pick?
I have Fountek JP3 tweeters, and while they arn't the best ribbons they should satisfy for low level listening.
I also have 4 Dayton Reference RS-270 woofers, that I could put in a sealed enclosure with a Linkwitz transform (I thought about TL but the box would be just way too big).
The midrange is where most of my hearing is anyway.
If you had 400 to spend on a pair of mids that had to be able to cross over at 400-600hz, and 4-6khz, what would you pick?
I have Fountek JP3 tweeters, and while they arn't the best ribbons they should satisfy for low level listening.
I also have 4 Dayton Reference RS-270 woofers, that I could put in a sealed enclosure with a Linkwitz transform (I thought about TL but the box would be just way too big).
The midrange is where most of my hearing is anyway.
I have a hard time believing you guys.
When the best tweeter ever tested by Zaph is worth 30$, even in front of a 160$ and a 225$ tweeter, both of them that receive the best tweeter in the world award quite often... I tend to believe that the 30$ tweeter is maybe the best in the whole universe?
Now in the midrange, which midrange is THAT much better than a cheap FR125S?
When the best tweeter ever tested by Zaph is worth 30$, even in front of a 160$ and a 225$ tweeter, both of them that receive the best tweeter in the world award quite often... I tend to believe that the 30$ tweeter is maybe the best in the whole universe?
Now in the midrange, which midrange is THAT much better than a cheap FR125S?
simon5 said:
I really doubt that the best tweeter is a dome at all. And which is best is dependant on the rest of the drivers and your system. IMO, the best "cheap" tweeters are ribbons. I haven't seen an open back one yet (except the Heil variation), so those are still compromized. And if your system is horn loaded a dome is going to be like bland tapioca.
Both the Fostex i mentioned are better in the mids than the FR. More critical of the amps you use and they won't do the bass the FR125 will, but as mids from 200-300 Hz up to 5-8 kHz...
And there are drivers such as the Exact with reputations which would have them creaming these two (but again, the sales tax on the Exact would buy either of the Fostex)
dave
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