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Old 7th November 2005, 09:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by bjackson
I am wondering if there is a midrange that is ribbon or planar in my price range, besides the BGCorps? The Neo8 is interesting, and the Neo10 seems like it'd be great, but it's not out for OEM yet.

Any other ribbon or planars, so am I better off using dynamic drivers?
Stay tuned. I'm hearing rumours of an open-back planar dynamic...

dave
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Old 7th November 2005, 10:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: Prices, in general

Quote:
Originally posted by bjackson
Let's say that all of these designs are state of the art and near perfection (i.e. ignore individual designs). These prices are for a pair of speakers.

The overall question being, is 300 spent only 30% of a 1000 dollar project, or is more like 90%? Where does the law of diminishing returns kick in, in DIY audio?

How much difference is there between a 300 dollar and 500 dollar project, how much from a 500 to 1000 dollar project?

Ever heard about decibells?

It is a logarythmic scale, very very verstile for audio stuff, concerning volume it is 20log(pressureRMS/0.00002Pa)

quality is 20log(price/1$) , the measure is so-called dBQ (decibels of quality).
Easy to calculate, that squaring the price doubles the quality.
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Old 7th November 2005, 10:10 PM   #23
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Here is an idea that just popped into my head.

4 WR125s with a Aurum Cantus ribbon and 2 Dayton RS270 woofers, does this seem like a good idea at all. I thought it might make a good mini line array. Note in the picture, the woofers should all line up and be centered, but I just threw it together.

I also considered Vifa PL11MG which I am using in one of my current projects and works very well. Here is a link to some various info:
http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=3699

Any suggestions?
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Old 7th November 2005, 10:38 PM   #24
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
I really doubt that the best tweeter is a dome at all. And which is best is dependant on the rest of the drivers and your system. IMO, the best "cheap" tweeters are ribbons. I haven't seen an open back one yet (except the Heil variation), so those are still compromized. And if your system is horn loaded a dome is going to be like bland tapioca.

Both the Fostex i mentioned are better in the mids than the FR. More critical of the amps you use and they won't do the bass the FR125 will, but as mids from 200-300 Hz up to 5-8 kHz...

And there are drivers such as the Exact with reputations which would have them creaming these two (but again, the sales tax on the Exact would buy either of the Fostex)

dave
I agree with you, ribbons are probably better but let say dome tweeters, and it seems money can't buy a better one when you get 30$ hehe. I know I tend to exagerate hehe!

BTW, why a horn loaded dome would sound awful? Some people say that no compression driver could beat a dome in sound quality, but if I understand you correctly, if you want a horn-loaded system then your only option is a compression driver? I heard some people made experiments with domes and liked the results...

Problem with drivers like Fostex and Exact, I guess you can't find any review on them that is not subjective so we never know if it's placebo or not... If you know of reviews of these drivers, I'd like to see them please.

Again, thank you very much guys.
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Old 7th November 2005, 11:12 PM   #25
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Its strange, but we all have differing opinions on what is "best".

Broad statements such as receiving only a 1% increase in sound quality for a 10X increase in price are just plain wrong.

I will however give some generalizations that I have personally tested:

1. The most expensive commercially available loudspeakers are more DIFFERENT than a-like. (-that should tell you a LOT right there about subjectivity.)

2. System, (source, gain, amp, speakers), interaction at a high cost component level TYPICALLY provides a MUCH greater influance on the perceived overall sound quality than the interaction with system and room. (chalk this one up to two factors - 1. its difficult to radically improve a room with out demolishing it and re-building, or conversly its fairly easy to get better sound with proper placement and minor room treatment; 2. Your brain can actually compensate for room interaction while it cannot for component inter-action.)

3. Most of the widely regarded "Hi-Fi" designs (and many DIY based designs like the THOR) are based on drivers with seamingly good measurements that typically require amplifiers with low-output impeadances and substantial current capability (i.e. large well-filtered power supplies for solid state devices). Note than when I state "seamingly good" I mean that flat freq. responses at a 1 meter distance with CSD plots that are clean beyond a 1 millisecond time, are not neccesarily indicative of overall quality - they are however important parameters to consider.


As to specifices for a loudspeaker design.. well that depends on the type of sound you are trying to achieve. Can you describe what you are looking for - perhaps subjective description and/or commercially available models you like?
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Old 7th November 2005, 11:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon5
I have a hard time believing you guys.

When the best tweeter ever tested by Zaph is worth 30$, even in front of a 160$ and a 225$ tweeter, both of them that receive the best tweeter in the world award quite often... I tend to believe that the 30$ tweeter is maybe the best in the whole universe?
IMO tweeter's are one of the most subjective elements in a loudspeaker design. Sure the Seas is in Johns opinion the best in the group, that doesn't mean that everyone else when evaluating the same tweeters would come to the same conclusions. John puts a lot of emphasis on value and HD, others may put more emphasis on other things. I note that he says of the seas
Quote:
set to erase the mindset that metal dome tweeters sound like doorbells
, I for one have not liked the metal domes I've heard, and would not be simply taking his word for it, but would want to hear one myself

You need to very carefully read what John says about the testing methodology, especially the bit about how the tweeters are run full range. IMO some of the tweeters may fall down in the tests when they get too much low freq energy, that they would never get when properly crossed over. Think about it. If the tweeter is trying to reproduce say 200Hz (or lower) which it would never do in a real world speaker design, how is that going to affect things in the passband??? you could be getting all sorts of dome distortions and crud that just won't be there when it is run over it's intended freq range.... (this may not be an issue, depending on the test, I note he says sweep methodoligy, so possibly it isn't as at any one time it should only be producing one freq, assuming perfect transient response...)

The other thing is that all of his tests are just a comparison between tweeters within a very controlled environment, they in no way take into account other aspects of the system design, can they handle the power required for the application, can they be crossed over low enough to match the other driver(s) in use..... there is a lot more to it than which one tests best in a particular circumstance

and one final thing measurements are good, but don't IMO tell the whole story, how they sound to you is the most important part IMO, for me a successfull design is one that sounds good, not one that measures well if it does both then great!!

just my worth

Tony.
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Old 7th November 2005, 11:51 PM   #27
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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I agree with you, it's very important how they sound to you.

On the other hand, let say you want to hear the recording exactly the same way as it was recorded. You want to know how the recording really sound.

I mean, we might find speakers that sound good, but it's not the way it's meant to be played, it sounds good yes, but...

I'm a strong believer of objectivity over subjectivity, show me CSD plots, multitone IMD plots, THD plots, HD plots, FR plots, etc... don't tell me it sounds better, prove it. Why it sounds better? What is exactly better sound? I think better sound means closer to the real recording. Show me the original song in CoolEdit, play it in dozen of different speaker systems, record it with the same mic at the same level in the same room at the same listening position with the same amplifier and compare.

Alot of people think that tweeters with slightly rolled off top end sounds better, but they may sound better to some, but they are worse...
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Old 7th November 2005, 11:54 PM   #28
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The problem with that idea Simon (and I totally agree with it, if this were true), is that most recording studios do not attempt to create mixes that play best on a flat system.

They are usually optimized for cheap speakers that most people have, which means too much midbass and too might high end to make it exciting. Atleast a lot of pop music, but is creeping over to some classical and jazz IMO.
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Old 8th November 2005, 12:01 AM   #29
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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You're right.

But if we think that way, recording studios won't care to produce better recordings.

They also follow no basic rules it seems, if all of them made the high end 3 dB louder, we could design every speaker with 3 dB less high end, but they all do it differently.

I think it's better to design flat, to reproduce flat, then if it sounds awful, you can play with electronic EQ to compensate, IMHO.

Very nice issue you bring here, very important one...
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Old 8th November 2005, 12:03 AM   #30
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Oh, I do agree with that statement. I do believe flat speakers with EQ would be best, but I was just meaning that a tweeter with rolled off high end sounding better than a ribbon tweeter that is almost perfectly flat is understandable.

Recording industries will never change for a few audiophiles though, however, we have Telarc and Chesky and a few others, LOL. Other than that, I play around with my computer and stuff.
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