Hey folks. I am putting a new speaker system together that is going to consist of a full ranger (Fostex FE168E Sugma) crossed over to a tweeter. (12" woofer on the low end) I'm going to start using the tweeter as a supertweeter, then I'd like to experiment crossing it in a bit lower, say around 5-7k or so to smooth out the top end.
I thought I'd bring this up over here, assuming you have more experience with tweeters. My original thought was to use a Fostex horn tweeter. Then, with some research, I'm leaning towards a ribbon.
But, which one. If I was going to stick with the supertweeter concept, I'd probably just run with the less expensive Aurum Cantus G2si. But, being that it will cover a wider range down the road, I'm inclined to kick it up a notch.
The Aurum Cantus G2 is at about the top of what I planned to spend. However, if it's really worth the extra to go for the Raven R1, I could make it happen.
Anyone heard both or have a preference? Is there much of a difference? Appreciate any thoughts you'd like to share. Cheers!
I thought I'd bring this up over here, assuming you have more experience with tweeters. My original thought was to use a Fostex horn tweeter. Then, with some research, I'm leaning towards a ribbon.
But, which one. If I was going to stick with the supertweeter concept, I'd probably just run with the less expensive Aurum Cantus G2si. But, being that it will cover a wider range down the road, I'm inclined to kick it up a notch.
The Aurum Cantus G2 is at about the top of what I planned to spend. However, if it's really worth the extra to go for the Raven R1, I could make it happen.
Anyone heard both or have a preference? Is there much of a difference? Appreciate any thoughts you'd like to share. Cheers!
I've got a similar set up to what you have planned, 15" JBL E-140 + Fe166es-R + A.C. G3. I like the ribbon and am very happy with it. The G3 is overkill for the application and I'm fairly positive the G2si would have been enough(I heard one in a different app. and thought it sounded terrific).
The ribbon and fostex driver compliment each other very well, the two really gelled after I removed the whizzer from the fostex and installed a phase plug...seemingly seamless transition after the treatment, before it there was a bit of ragged-ness and confusion around the xo point. The treatment also smoothed out the mid range and added some detail and dynamics.
Can't comment much on the Raven as I've heard one only briefly and a relatively long time ago, but, if nothing else, it's a beautiful piece of engineering. I'd use one if money was a non-issue.
The ribbon and fostex driver compliment each other very well, the two really gelled after I removed the whizzer from the fostex and installed a phase plug...seemingly seamless transition after the treatment, before it there was a bit of ragged-ness and confusion around the xo point. The treatment also smoothed out the mid range and added some detail and dynamics.
Can't comment much on the Raven as I've heard one only briefly and a relatively long time ago, but, if nothing else, it's a beautiful piece of engineering. I'd use one if money was a non-issue.
Illusus
Good to hear from you. Yes, I saw something I liked in your set-up. After much research and messing around, I am going in about the same direction, only with the Fostex 12" FW305 woofer and 168E Sigma, (168 on open baffle). I also have a pair of the 166es-rs to play with. I'll be crossing the low end at 200 hz.
If you don't mind, where are you crossing in the ribbon and what kind of crossover are you using? Do you like the ribbon a lot better than the 166 alone?
I'm basically just trying to decide if the Raven is worth the extra $$.
Thanks!
Good to hear from you. Yes, I saw something I liked in your set-up. After much research and messing around, I am going in about the same direction, only with the Fostex 12" FW305 woofer and 168E Sigma, (168 on open baffle). I also have a pair of the 166es-rs to play with. I'll be crossing the low end at 200 hz.
If you don't mind, where are you crossing in the ribbon and what kind of crossover are you using? Do you like the ribbon a lot better than the 166 alone?
I'm basically just trying to decide if the Raven is worth the extra $$.
Thanks!
I run a 2si crossed about 5k above a FE208 sigma
It seems like the bigger, more expensive ribbon tweets are ones that cover most of the mids too. 5k is still a pretty high cross for a tweeter, most tweeters are crossed much lower. IMHO prob isn't as crucial.
I think at 5-7 k the 2si would be perfect, and isn't it a third of the price of the Raven?
I approve of your approach- try 'em as super tweets and enjoy, but also try crossing lower-it might well sound better, and the cross is still above the most crucial part of the midrange..(lower is probably harder to get right, but until you do , you have the super tweeter approach.
If the price of the 2si is what you want to pay, I'd say its a no-brainer. Get 'em and you will be THRILLED.
It seems like the bigger, more expensive ribbon tweets are ones that cover most of the mids too. 5k is still a pretty high cross for a tweeter, most tweeters are crossed much lower. IMHO prob isn't as crucial.
I think at 5-7 k the 2si would be perfect, and isn't it a third of the price of the Raven?
I approve of your approach- try 'em as super tweets and enjoy, but also try crossing lower-it might well sound better, and the cross is still above the most crucial part of the midrange..(lower is probably harder to get right, but until you do , you have the super tweeter approach.
If the price of the 2si is what you want to pay, I'd say its a no-brainer. Get 'em and you will be THRILLED.
In my situation the best results are with the XO at ~about 7kHz (it was actually a second hand recommendation from Dave D.). I tried the xo point from 10k through 6k. I think it has a lot to do with the 'whizzerectomy', which may(I haven't measured yet) have given the Fostex a nice roll-off in that 7k range...the Sigma should integrate nicely. I think that above that combing becomes a bigger issue due to spacing between the drivers. I'd love to try a pair of Sigmas myself but I'm short on funds for a couple months. I have a great design idea for the 166es-r's so when the $ starts flowing again I'll, most likely, buy a pair of Sigmas for the OB's.
I definitely prefer the sound with the tweeter in. It went from 'wow' to 'holy wow!'. The hf detail is amazing and remains easy on the ears. The added hf information rounds out a lot of mid frequencies, some sounds now have resonance artifacts which were missing earlier; decay of cymbals and string instruments became more realistic, ie. longer and more pronounced... twelve string numbers are simply amazing. Everyone that has heard the change so far has made similar comments (so I'm not crazy or everyone I know is just as). For me, a good super tweeter is now almost a must have not just a nice addition. It's still not an absolute necessity for a 'religious' listening experience but it sure helps.
I definitely prefer the sound with the tweeter in. It went from 'wow' to 'holy wow!'. The hf detail is amazing and remains easy on the ears. The added hf information rounds out a lot of mid frequencies, some sounds now have resonance artifacts which were missing earlier; decay of cymbals and string instruments became more realistic, ie. longer and more pronounced... twelve string numbers are simply amazing. Everyone that has heard the change so far has made similar comments (so I'm not crazy or everyone I know is just as). For me, a good super tweeter is now almost a must have not just a nice addition. It's still not an absolute necessity for a 'religious' listening experience but it sure helps.
Had a mate down here in Aus who went through a couple of replacement ribbons for the R1 - although he was crossing it a bit lower than 7K. The Aurum Cantus have pretty much the same sound, so I think they're better value then the Raven.
Go for the smaller one, as the longer ribbons don't have as good dispersion vertically as the shorter ones (I'm spoilt by the folded ribbon in my Elacs, and am always comparing). I'm currently working on some sort of phase plug/shallow horn to try and get better vertical dispersion for my G3's (but all it's doing is showing up my lousy wood-working skills.
Go for the smaller one, as the longer ribbons don't have as good dispersion vertically as the shorter ones (I'm spoilt by the folded ribbon in my Elacs, and am always comparing). I'm currently working on some sort of phase plug/shallow horn to try and get better vertical dispersion for my G3's (but all it's doing is showing up my lousy wood-working skills.
one1speed,
Just a note on the Raven R1--I had Dennis Murphy design a xover for a 2-way using a Seas W15CY and the Raven. He crossed it at 2700 which was a little low for the Raven but necessary for the Seas. The R1 would prefer at least 3000 so this is well within your parameters. He was astounded at the horizontal dispersion of the Raven--it remains remains consistently the same, as I recall, to 80 degress off axis. He had never seen anything like it. I think that Rick Craig of Selah Audio said this was because it is horn loaded.
Cheers, Fred
Just a note on the Raven R1--I had Dennis Murphy design a xover for a 2-way using a Seas W15CY and the Raven. He crossed it at 2700 which was a little low for the Raven but necessary for the Seas. The R1 would prefer at least 3000 so this is well within your parameters. He was astounded at the horizontal dispersion of the Raven--it remains remains consistently the same, as I recall, to 80 degress off axis. He had never seen anything like it. I think that Rick Craig of Selah Audio said this was because it is horn loaded.
Cheers, Fred
This is the other hand of the vertical dispersion.
A ribbon is quite tall relative (even the 2si) to a dome which limits dispersion vertically but relatively narrow (like 10mm) which gives better horizontal dispersion...
An advantage of the LCY ribbon tweets is that the have a bout equal hor and vert disp:
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/lcy-components.html
Variac said:
yup... I even bested the efficency of All the cheaper AC's while keeping the fantastic LCY dispersion with my DIY ribbons here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61814&highlight=
I've done some comparisons between the Fostex FT 17 horn tweeter, Cantus G2 and the ESS AMT with my Coral fullrangers and I like the ESS best. So do consider the ESS if you can get hold of it..
Here's a picture of the Flat 10 with the ESS AMT on top.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's a picture of the Flat 10 with the ESS AMT on top.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
BTW said:
Can you just attach the images... i'm getting this message:
The Heil is an awesome "ribbon" in its own right. Its dipole nature makes it quite special. A buddy in Edmonton has them on top of his Corals too. And Chris has a pr on top of bipole Fostex woofers in his HT.
dave
edit... never tries going to the 2nd pic... it is now showing up
one1speed said:
In case you are not aware ESS company is still around.
http://www.essspeakers.com/
In the ESS AMTs in the pictures above were purchased a few months ago.. I drop them an email, they are prompt in their reply. You can also buy diaphragms from them as well.
BTW, thanks! I sent an email off to them. Also sent one off to Orca Design regading the Raven R1. As to the Heil, how high to they go? As I stated, I had hoped to use this as a supertweeter to start with. Just wondering what the top end is.
Lei, it's on the list. I'm a bit tempted to do the G2 if I'm going with Aurum Cantus. But I've heard good things about the G2si as well.
Lei, it's on the list. I'm a bit tempted to do the G2 if I'm going with Aurum Cantus. But I've heard good things about the G2si as well.
Hi
I have apair of Raven R 1s in an MTM design-tha Aria R, designed by Joe D'Appolito. I have been using these since I built them about three years ago as my preferred system, my other speakers use Scanspeaks. The performance of the tweeters is very good, I've never had any problems with ribbons.
Ribbons dont cost an arm and a leg to replace, though. Andre Perrault has instructions for replacements on his site-www.e-speakers.com
Rgds
George
I have apair of Raven R 1s in an MTM design-tha Aria R, designed by Joe D'Appolito. I have been using these since I built them about three years ago as my preferred system, my other speakers use Scanspeaks. The performance of the tweeters is very good, I've never had any problems with ribbons.
Ribbons dont cost an arm and a leg to replace, though. Andre Perrault has instructions for replacements on his site-www.e-speakers.com
Rgds
George
one1speed said:
Surprisingly according to the specs, the AMTs go up to 25KHz, not that impressive a figure actually, but as mentioned by Planet 10, it's the dipole radiation and ability to move air by the ESS AMTs that gives better realism to the highs. I was quite happy with the Cantus G2 until I compared it with the AMTs
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