line array loudspeaker project - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st October 2005, 05:21 AM   #1
daly2k is offline daly2k  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default line array loudspeaker project

I am going to undertake a once in a lifetime project and build some Line array loudspeakers. I have been studying the data and all the web information including Dr. Griffins work, threads on DiY and other AES papers on the web.

I am designing this for two channel stereo not AV and I already own 2 buggtussel transmission line subs that have adjustable active crossovers (12db &24db) plus phase, and frequency (35 to 200hz). They also have a parametric eq that can be used to help with nulls and hot spots.

I have decided on a 12x12 array and plan a box ht of 72+inches.]
I will use the Foundex 5" ribbon drivers with 12 per side (60"array).

Finally the question: What mid-woofers to use? I have narrowed it down to a few choices based on speed and dispersion with low distortion.

Eton 5" hexacone driver-$100
Seas Excel 5.5" Magnesium cone-$116
Peerless 6.5"hds paper doped cone-$69.50
Vifa PL14W 5" paper cone--$47

I plan to crossover between 2.5 - 1.8k

These are all fairly expensive running but all are of high quality. Has any other DIY used any of the above drivers in a line array.
I have read many threads where inexpensive drivers from parts express overstock were used but I have no way to compare the sound quality. I have also read Selah's and GR-research web sites and they use either 7"metal cones or other expensive drivers. I am planning a sealed cabinet (not ported or open)

I have some maggie 3.6r's which I enjoy and basically I want to keep what they do well (large image, good soundstage, transparent)but add more dynamics.

I have help with the cabinet design so that is not an issue, when in doubt brace more. Again my goal is a once in a lifetime design so I am willing to do the research. Buying Epiphany's at 14k or Maggie 20.1's at 12k is out of the question. I think I can do as good for less than 6k. I have Pass Aleph 1.2's that I built 6 years ago and I will use them or my Pass/tharagard 80w/ch amp that I built 10 years ago to power them. thanks, dave
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 07:24 AM   #2
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
diyAudio Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle,Wash.
Dave,
It looks like you're set on a line array and prepared to spend a lot of money doing it. I noticed that you've mentioned PE's cheap drivers, and I'm guessing that the're the 49 cent NSB 4 inch drivers. Why don't you buy a handful of them and try them out, some stock and some modified. Modding these drivers can make a profound difference, especially after doping the cones and adding phase plugs.
Personally, I wouldn't use anything over 3 inches (2 inches is even better) for a line array and if you get the right drivers, you may not need tweeters. I'm not sure what your goals are, do you want a "social" speaker that sounds pretty good in a wide listening area, or are these to be used primarily for your own use and you demand superior sound at "your" listening position. All speakers are a collection of compromises, you just have to figure what your priorities are.
Using expensive drivers is no guarantee that you will end up with better than average sound. Many of the design parameters of the expensive drivers that account for the higher price, such as high power handling, reduced distortion, controlled cone breakup and etc., are of little importance when considering a line array and may cause a compromised sound compared to a cheaper, simpler driver design.
I would encourage you to take a very close look at some of the small (3 inch or less) fullrange drivers before considering larger and more expensive drivers that will not, IMHO, give you as good performance even if you're able to overcome all their inherent disadvantages.
There are many that may not agree, but it works for me.
Best Regards,
TerryO
__________________
"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
quote from Terry Olson's DIYaudio Forum application
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 10:04 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Scottmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Good drivers all. As you have a couple of subs to handle the lows, I'd suggest you also check out the Vifa PW13 5.5" mid-bass, as used in Lynn Olson's Ariel Transmission Lines. Less bass than the others, but that's what your subs are for, high sensitivity, which is always good to have, and, unlike just about every other mid-bass driver available (still, after 10 years +!) it requires no eq at all, and only a minimal crossover. One of the most transparent drivers ever made, regardless of price.
__________________
Community site www.frugal-horn.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 01:15 PM   #4
daly2k is offline daly2k  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default line array speaker project

Terry O, If I could find some of these cheaper drivers with the right parameters some R&D would be helpfull. There are just so many to choose from so where do you start. My goals are great sound for a stereo system and not AV, the system will be in a big room which allows others to enjoy. I don't listen at rocket ship take off levels but I do enjoy dynamics. You are correct in that I don't want much distortion and looking at driver specs for the less expensive drivers (especially chinese) that distortion is spec't
at 5-7%. The drivers I mentioned are really for stand alone use but have been used by others in line arrays here in the midwest with good results. If you have some model numbers I would be happy to test them for consideration-thanks again
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 01:18 PM   #5
daly2k is offline daly2k  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default line array speaker project

Scottmoose, the vifa line here is quite popular and there is a company called Meniscus Audio that sells the line so I will see if I can get a PL 13 to test in my rig. thanks, daly2k
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 03:03 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
rcavictim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Next to an open wormhole NW of Toronto
Default Re: line array loudspeaker project

Quote:
Originally posted by daly2k
:

I have decided on a 12x12 array and plan a box ht of 72+inches.]
I will use the Foundex 5" ribbon drivers with 12 per side (60"array).

thanks, dave

Dave,

It appears to me reading this "12x12" that you plan to build two square arrays each consisiting of 144 FR drivers . If this is the case you I really do suggest serious R&D with cheap FR drivers like the NSB's. It would not make sense to commit as much as $30K in drivers alone to a highly experimental design.

I have an idea to try an array not unlike this myself and have the suitable driver inventory already in stock. I just have way too much already on my plate and have some smaller, perhaps more practical speaker design ideas to try first.

Don't be quick to dismiss the open baffle dipole concept design. It eliminates one of the biggest bugaboos of conventional speaker boxes, that being cabinet coloration. The results in even a simple, low cost lash-up can be remarkable.

Luck,
Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 03:03 PM   #7
justinc is offline justinc  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: boston
I would contact Rick Craig at Selah for advice, if you are considering using such expensive drivers. He designed my speakers using the fountek ribbons and the dayton RS drivers which i think makes a phenomenal combo. If you dont want to spend $116 on the seas, I would definitely look into the dayton RS at $25 a piece as a replacement. If cost is no object then hey go for the seas, but im not sure that 5x the price is worth the little difference in quality. The other thing I would consider is what type of equipment and music you will be using/playing. If you try to play mp3's that are poor quality the aluminum drivers will really show it and it doesnt sound very good. I think If you were to use paper cones instead they would sound better in this case.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 05:54 PM   #8
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
diyAudio Member
 
TerryO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle,Wash.
Dave stated:
Quote:
Terry O, If I could find some of these cheaper drivers with the right parameters some R&D would be helpfull. There are just so many to choose from so where do you start. My goals are great sound for a stereo system and not AV, the system will be in a big room which allows others to enjoy. I don't listen at rocket ship take off levels but I do enjoy dynamics. You are correct in that I don't want much distortion and looking at driver specs for the less expensive drivers (especially chinese) that distortion is spec't
Finding the right drivers is really the trick. On my focused array speakers, I used Radio Shack 2 inch close-out speakers that cost me about $1.00 each. Dan Wiggins measured them and found that their FR was 1.5 dB plus or minus from 275 Hz to 20KHz. They're a great sounding little unit, but as you might suspect, a single driver just won't play very loud. However with 12 per side they have great dynamics with very little strain, the Reviewers use the term "effortless" which actually seems to be appropriate. No crossover at all and because they're in a focused array, no phase problems either. Those drivers are long gone, but there are several 3 inch drivers that have been touted as sounding "very" good on this and other forums. If I get some time later today I'll see what I can come up with.

If you have a large room and want wide coverage with dynamics and minimal distortion there is another path. I'm reluctant to use a four letter word in this august forum, but being the plebian I am at heart, I will anyway. The four letter word? Horn. I'm sure that many will offer an opinion on horns, some well founded, some based on little more than something they read somewhere.
I believe that in a "well designed" horn system, the advantages of absolutely minimal distortion, extraordinary dynamics and outstanding sensitivity coupled with the ability to tailor the directivity give them a lot of pluses. The minuses? Well, what always bugged me was the time and phase differences between a Bass Horn and the midrange. In my K-Horns (long gone) the difference was several feet. With the advent of cheaper, better, etc., digital delays it may be possible to eliminate what has always been a major problem. It also allows you the freedom to use some of the low powered tube or solid state amps that really have excellent sound , but are incapable of driving "normal" speakers.
I wouldn't usually go on for so long, but you seem be sincere in your quest for an outstanding system, so I felt obligated to mention some options (like Horns) that are often overlooked. I don't have any horns myself due to the fact that I don't have enough house and too many kids. Actually the kids are OK, I just have a small house so space is a prime consideration. If your circumstances are different, then you have few limits standing between you and your goal.
Anyhow, these are just some thoughts, hope some of it is useful.
Best Regards,
TerryO
__________________
"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
quote from Terry Olson's DIYaudio Forum application
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 06:08 PM   #9
sqlkev is offline sqlkev  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 714
I would throw the dayton rs125 or the seas L12/15 and possibly the aura ns3 into the mix. They all have the xmax and low distortion.

Personally, I'd go with the dayton rs125 or the aura ns3 + customed built ribbons. It would considerably cut the cost down and you can save that $ toward something else.

Just a suggestion, if you want a wide stage, consider a dipole array.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2005, 08:14 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Costa Rica
Send a message via AIM to johninCR Send a message via MSN to johninCR Send a message via Yahoo to johninCR
Since you're going to spend the bucks, I'd go with the CSS WR125ST and use 16 per side for your 72" line. Ultimately it will give you the most flexibility in achieving outstanding results. The closer spacing allowed by the line array frame and a driver with a very wide range of FR will permit you to cross low or high, or even run the mids full range and and use a simple first order on the tweets.

I too would highly recommend splitting a sheet of plywood in half and giving them a shot on OB before closing them up in a box. It's a real eye opener, especially since you have the low bass covered already.
__________________
Everyone has a photographic memory. It's just that most are out of film.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Line Array Project Log zobsky Multi-Way 70 20th July 2013 08:02 AM
Line Array Project SteveNarayan Multi-Way 4 14th March 2008 05:18 AM
Another Line Array Project Turboegt Multi-Way 43 30th June 2005 06:25 PM
wiring a line array loudspeaker vangre Multi-Way 1 6th December 2003 11:48 PM
Line array project VictorG Multi-Way 14 14th June 2003 08:04 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:22 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2