resonant frequency of water (distilled) and how to make speaker play underwater

[Audiophilenoob]

this is a very strange question...

but I'm interested in what the resonant frequency of water is...

also I'm trying to figure out a way to generate (whatever this frequency is) at as many DB as I can underwater...

hearsay this frequency is around 42khz... but I think this is hogwash and am not willing to spend the money to try it...

I would like to see 180-190db in the water at w/e frequency this is.... and have about 10,000 watts RMS to work with in achieving it

this is a serious question BTW...

 

[Audiophilenoob]

only thing I've found

"Far infrared (FIR) frequency happens to be the resonant frequency of water molecule,"

http://www.alkalife.com/scihealth.aspx?id=13

 

[Audiophilenoob]

if I can narrow it to within a certain bandwith area... I believe that would still work

 

[Audiophilenoob]

after some digging I found this

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html

I don't know what a lot of this means... but I Thought I would post it

what I'm looking to do is "shear" he oxygen from the hydrogen with sound... it's wierd I know.... but this document seems to show that it in fact is possible

 

[maf_au]

I wouldn't be surprised.

That's what happens with cavitation on a boat propellor, but by different means.

What's the application? Water transmit's sound pretty well, as I remember, but your speaker is going to have to be capable of shifting it...

 

[DanWiggins]

It's quite easy... Most high power SONAR systems can do it. Cavitation was always a concern of the higher power SONAR heads I designed. Things that could do 230-235 dB at 38 to 50 kHz. Even higher, further up in frequency. And could be done with just 300-500W of power.

Look for info on SONAR head design. However, if you're looking to do it for energy generation via release of hydrogen, it's terribly inefficient. It'll take A few hundred Watts to get a few Watts of hydrogen.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®

 

[Ouroboros]

You might want to search the web for information about the best frequencies to use to show the sono-luminescence phenomena in water. There is still a conflict of opinion in science as to whether the sono-luminescence in collapsing micro-bubbles is due due to a novel energy generation mechanism or not.

 

[Jennice]

Aren't we mixing two phenomenons here?

You want to split water. Ok. Aparently it can happen as a side effect of (i.e. ) sonars at 30-50 kHz.
However, I've been told that the RESONANCE frequency of water is 2.45 GHz, which is why a microwava oven operates at this frequency. It excites the water molecules and thereby cooks the contents of the oven. (this is supposedly why you can't microwave things that have no water in them). The most efficient way to excite water is at its resonance frequency.
I don't think you will wnt to play with this kind of frequencies for extended periods of time without proper shielding of the persons operating the equipment.

Jennice

 

[Audiophilenoob]

It's quite easy... Most high power SONAR systems can do it. Cavitation was always a concern of the higher power SONAR heads I designed. Things that could do 230-235 dB at 38 to 50 kHz. Even higher, further up in frequency. And could be done with just 300-500W of power.

Look for info on SONAR head design. However, if you're looking to do it for energy generation via release of hydrogen, it's terribly inefficient. It'll take A few hundred Watts to get a few Watts of hydrogen.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®

ah thanks dan

A man named meyer did this in the past and found that electrolysis using this method is one of the most efficent ways.

if in fact it's that inefficent then I guess it's not worth it...

I think meyer had claimed this method exerted less force in the breaking apart of the atom than the energy bonding them had (which is impossible)

 

[Audiophilenoob]

Aren't we mixing two phenomenons here?

You want to split water. Ok. Aparently it can happen as a side effect of (i.e. ) sonars at 30-50 kHz.
However, I've been told that the RESONANCE frequency of water is 2.45 GHz, which is why a microwava oven operates at this frequency. It excites the water molecules and thereby cooks the contents of the oven. (this is supposedly why you can't microwave things that have no water in them). The most efficient way to excite water is at its resonance frequency.
I don't think you will wnt to play with this kind of frequencies for extended periods of time without proper shielding of the persons operating the equipment.

Jennice

2.45ghz isn't the resonance of water... check the link

I was thinking that with enough force on a symmetric pulling of the molecule you could tear it apart. so enough db with a 3.05um wavelength would tear all the atoms in question apart

I'm trying to convert around 11 gallons of water in to hydrogen and oxygen in under 10 min with only 220v from a normal house (probably impossible)

normal electrolysis is around 72% efficent

 

[SY]

Hmmm, let's see, 11 gallons is about 45 liters or 45,000 grams. 18 grams/mole, so that's 2500 moles. One mole would take 96,500 coulombs, so you'll need about 240 megacoulombs. Ten minutes is 600 seconds, so you'll need 400,000 amps. Good luck with that one.

 

[Ouroboros]

The jewelry trade uses commercially available water electrolysis units to provide a pure oxy-hydrogen flame for precision welding purposes. Anything that increased the efficiency would be useful.

Don't pay to much attention to Stan Meyer's claims. When I was assisting some cold-fusion reseachers many years back we looked closely at his claims and there was no authentication of any of them.

You may want to investigate the interesting properties of the electrolysis of water (using sodium hydroxide as the electrolyte) when the ion conduction path in the electrolyte is in a strong magnetic field. If the current through the water and the magnetic field are orthogonal then the water moves sideways (as you might expect from Faraday's laws). You can get quite high speed vortices forming for which some researchers are claiming anomalous energy production.

 

[Audiophilenoob]

Hmmm, let's see, 11 gallons is about 45 liters or 45,000 grams. 18 grams/mole, so that's 2500 moles. One mole would take 96,500 coulombs, so you'll need about 240 megacoulombs. Ten minutes is 600 seconds, so you'll need 400,000 amps. Good luck with that one.

AH thanks for that.... yea figured it was probably impossible to do it so quickly

in normal electrolysis that's 680,000 watts for 10 min and would need cathodes able to handle this with enough area to do it

the best cathodes I've found are 2A/cm2... so 20000 A/m2... so a surface area around 30 m2 is needed

/heheheheh damn....

 

[Audiophilenoob]

The jewelry trade uses commercially available water electrolysis units to provide a pure oxy-hydrogen flame for precision welding purposes. Anything that increased the efficiency would be useful.

Don't pay to much attention to Stan Meyer's claims. When I was assisting some cold-fusion reseachers many years back we looked closely at his claims and there was no authentication of any of them.

You may want to investigate the interesting properties of the electrolysis of water (using sodium hydroxide as the electrolyte) when the ion conduction path in the electrolyte is in a strong magnetic field. If the current through the water and the magnetic field are orthogonal then the water moves sideways (as you might expect from Faraday's laws). You can get quite high speed vortices forming for which some researchers are claiming anomalous energy production.

meyers claims did seem highly suspect good to hear from a good source that they're hogwash

I was looking at electrolytes etc for hydogren production... problem was getting ENOUGH hydrogen production with the least amount of HP wasted.... around 17000 watts is needed to produce 60L/minute with sulfuric acid as the electrolyte.... or am I off one these calculations?

is there any cheap chemical substance that when dropped into water releases hydrogen for say a pretty extended period of time?

say 30 days at 60L/minute? the hydrogen can be in the substance or releases it from the water itself... I dunno which is easier and longer lasting while still cheap

 

[quickshift]

Where and how will you store all the gas?

It'll make about 2,200 cubic feet of highly explosive gas mixture from 11 gallons of water.

I'm quite glad you live half a planet away.

I wouldn't want my next door neighbour building a machine that used thousands of amps to produce massive quantities of explosives gasses while making a 150+ decibel noise.

 

[SY]

When I was assisting some cold-fusion reseachers many years back

Who would that have been?

 

[grataku]

is there any cheap chemical substance that when dropped into water releases hydrogen for say a pretty extended period of time?

What you want is something that works for free, so in the end this is what's going to do it for you: nature.
http://www.energycooperation.org/bioproductionH2.htm

That is until the bacteria evolve an learn that you are using their farts to power your car after which they'll demand equal pay, treatment, and the 50" plasma tv.

 

[Audiophilenoob]

Where and how will you store all the gas?

It'll make about 2,200 cubic feet of highly explosive gas mixture from 11 gallons of water.

I'm quite glad you live half a planet away.

I wouldn't want my next door neighbour building a machine that used thousands of amps to produce massive quantities of explosives gasses while making a 150+ decibel noise.

the gas would without a doubt be pressured to around 10000 PSI or pressured to liquid....

it's been done in fact.... but the problem this far is getting the hydrogen INTO the vechile... this would do it inside and be safer and all you would need is water... the oxygen can be stored for the intake (think free nitrous oxide) or expelled

I dunno if this works though

 

[Audiophilenoob]

What you want is something that works for free, so in the end this is what's going to do it for you: nature.
http://www.energycooperation.org/bioproductionH2.htm

That is until the bacteria evolve an learn that you are using their farts to power your car after which they'll demand equal pay, treatment, and the 50" plasma tv.

it's interesting of course

but the scale of that bacteria would have to be immense to produce around 1.5 moles a minute of hydrogen... that's a LOT of hydrogen

this might been cool on a large scale for semi-free hydrogen to power a house or something where space isn't limited... but in a car you can't have a bathtub with bacteria in it to produce hydrogen to start your car and drive lol

I think I'm going to have to create an alloy... not really a big deal... but rather expensive to get it right... I wonder if I can get some of Bush's $1 billion bill to help with this

 

[grataku]

Liquified oxygen and hydrogen mixture and reactive surface: that's going to be beautiful. Let me know I'll get the camera ready. (tha't's me wearing welding goggles while waiting)

I guess you didn't understand quickshifts question.