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Old 24th November 2012, 10:38 AM   #151
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Great post tubelab! LOL, should have figured that if it involved high voltages, cars and explosive gases, you'd have done it.

If this works so well, then why isn't it being used more? Too much trouble? Too dangerous? Not worth it for other reasons?

Still trying to figure out where the extra energy is coming from. Does the HHO just help pull more energy out of the gasoline?
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Old 24th November 2012, 09:02 PM   #152
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Still trying to figure out where the extra energy is coming from. Does the HHO just help pull more energy out of the gasoline?
My assumption, and those mentioned in the MIT paper, was that it somehow improved the efficiency of the gasoline engine. If I remember right, the MIT experiments used pure hydrogen. The HHO stuff is just easier to make at home!

I know I have copies of all the "stuff" I downloaded back when I did this, but can't find it now. I just Googled the terms "MIT hydrogen gasoline" and found these:

Green Car Congress: Hydrogen-Enhanced Combustion Engine Could Improve Gasoline Fuel Economy by 20% to 30%

Hydrogen fuel enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 24th November 2012, 09:24 PM   #153
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A reminder: there's no such thing as HHO. You're injecting a hydrogen and oxygen mixture.

Try injecting pure oxygen and see what happens to the efficiency.
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Old 24th November 2012, 10:32 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by tubelab.com View Post
I just found this thread that has been around for quite some time. I read it all and saw a lot of talk but no actual experiments ever performed. I don't remember exactly how I heard about the whole water/hydrogen/"hydroxy" powered car stuff, but I did get interested enough about 5 years ago to actually do some experiments.

(snip)

We did see a significant improvement with this system. It was nowhere near the numbers seen by some of the proponents of this stuff, but just Google BoB Boyce and you can see why some of their numbers are not credible....
Thanks, it is really great to hear about some real world results.

From reading the material at MIT e.g. http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/hand...pdf?sequence=1 the nub of the idea seems that the flame propagation is faster with the hydrogen added and the combustion is more stable and complete. This seems possible, so maybe it will one day be used more widely.

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You just won best line of the thread. I don't even get that.
Thanks, I just mean that if the combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen is supposed to give more energy than was used splitting the water then somehow we would have got some energy 'for free' from those atoms. We got something without paying for it, which might work in real life occasionally, but in thermodynamics is not allowed!
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Old 24th November 2012, 11:28 PM   #155
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From reading the material at MIT e.g. DSpace@MIT : Page not found
That is the paper I was looking for. Note that this paper is dated 2004. The research was probably done a few years before that. There have been major improvements in gasoline engine technology since then. In 2004 a 5.0 liter V8 engine made about 300 HP. This power level today requires only a 3.4 liter V6. All three major US auto manufacturers now offer 600+ HP cars for sale WITH warantees. This was race car territory just 10 years ago.

We learned how to model dynamic airflow in the 90's, flame propagation and the combustion process in the 00's and more recently direct injection gasoline technology. These improvements may have made hydrogen injection unneeded.

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Try injecting pure oxygen and see what happens to the efficiency.
Other than making a big bang???? Race cars often inject Nitrous Oxide which dissassociates into N2 and O under the intense heat of combustion allowing for major power increases. A proper amount of extra fuel must also be injected at the same time, otherwise an overly lean mixture will result. An over lean condition causes abnormal combustion (pinging) resulting in melted pistons.....ask me how I know this?????? Again, somewhere on an old hard drive, I have video of my Nitrous lawnmower experiment.....and you guys thought all I melted was vacuum tubes! Right after the first Fast and Furious movie came out we did a Nitrous injected PC video too....
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:33 AM   #156
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I have crazy idea: what if to inject O3?
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:36 AM   #157
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WHATS WRONG With TNT or a good ol pipe bomb?
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Old 28th November 2012, 03:03 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by The Him Click the image to open in full size.
You just won best line of the thread. I don't even get that.

Thanks, I just mean that if the combustion of the hydrogen and oxygen is supposed to give more energy than was used splitting the water then somehow we would have got some energy 'for free' from those atoms. We got something without paying for it, which might work in real life occasionally, but in thermodynamics is not allowed!

I wasn't talking science, I was talking about your wordsmithing. Great way to put it.
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Old 28th November 2012, 03:05 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by IMSTOOPID View Post
WHATS WRONG With TNT or a good ol pipe bomb?

Nothing, just tough to inject.

I once started to make a motorcycle engine that ran on gunpowder. Good luck with the feed.
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Old 28th November 2012, 03:15 AM   #160
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this thread is delightfully nutty
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