Advice on what speakers to build, $400 price cap

[santiu]

Hey guys,

Recently I finished building a pair of Wayne Jaeschke's DBP's. I had a lot of fun putting together, and for me they sound great.

Now that I've built one pair, I'd like to try to build another pair, but this time step it up a bit. I recently picked up a NAD 2200 amp for free, and I'll be building a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp to feed it. I'm looking for suggestions on what speaker to build. I'm not looking to do any design myself, so I'd like a speaker that's well documented/tested.

The speakers will be used to music only without a sub, and be fed by the above preamp/amp. I listen to mostly jazz, funk, and jam-band type music. I'm hoping to keep all drivers and all XO-components under $400, but I'm flexible. Size wise, I have no constraints.

Any suggestions?

thanks...

[chainenoble]

http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker16.html

should be an excellent design-but go portedif you are not using a sub

[Scottmoose]

In your place, I'd try this lovely Mass Loaded Tapered Quarter Wave Tube.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project02/Project02.html

As you can see, it's rather well documented... Believe me, Martin knows what he's doing -after all, he's the man who finally worked out a way of accurately modelling a transmission line. And, being a TL it has all the advantages over a conventional vented box that you'd expect -wonderfully pure midrange, clean and nicely damped bass response etc.

On a practical note, the Fostex FE164 full-range driver he used was discontinued a while ago, but Fostex' FE167E is a straight swap, and actually provides an even better response than the original 164 drivers used. I've built two pairs of these. The first were 'borrowed' by an opera-singer friend of mine with a liking for Janis Joplin, Miles Davis, The Average White Band, The Doobie Brothers and The Rolling Stones. She refuses to give them back, hence my building a second pair. Which says it all really. Both of mine were built from 3/4" MDF, which I then veneered, though they also look good in a paint or lacquer finish. The originals were built from ply. I honestly can't think of another speaker even near the price that is this good -they lap up all of the above, then beg for some Peter Gabriel. In my room, they're basically flat from 35Hz to around 23KHz, and have that spectacular coherence and speed only full-range drivers can provide. Hugely recommended.

Best
Scott

[moray james]

http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/sp...tex_fe127e.htm

Here is a nice sized design that will run either a Fostex fe127e or an fe126e driver. No need for a sub if you can place them close to a side wall or corner. Simple clean no crossover components or compensation network needed. You can spend your time on tweaking the drivers. Might even be able to run one of those small Lowthers in this cabinet. Regards Moray James.

[nerd of nerds]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=3430

Using the dayton reference driver and seas 27tdfc (both are supported by the above project) you could probobly build these for around 300-400 bucks.

This is my current project (using dayton 8" reference and seas 27tdfc). Right now i'm studying the blueprints (available on request) so i know exactly what i'm getting into...

These will reach down to 24hz in room...but it is a LOT of work to build these. laminating 1/4" HDF to make a 4"thick baffle for example

[santiu]

Wow... you guys are awesome. Such Eye-Openers. I had never previously considered a Full-Range design. Originally I had in mind a MTM (like Dr. K's MTM) or TMWW (like Wayne's Veritas) sort of deal, but the Full-Range idea is intriguing, and unique (I really dig things that are a little different). Not to mention the cost is quite appealing.

Can someone give me a link (or a brief description) to a site that talks about the sound qualities of Full-Range speakers vs. traditional 2 or 3 way speakers? I'm very interested. I love the simplicity of it, I've just never heard one before, and it seems amazing that one speaker can produce high quality sound and have enough bass to live without a subwoofer. Can full-range designs really match or outperform expensive audiophile type speakers? Is there a reason that the full-range drivers in those designs are relatively cheap?

Man, you guys have got me even more excited to choose and build my next pair of speakers. I gotta get going on that Foreplay preamp so I can get this system together and listen!!

[Scottmoose]

Originally posted by santiu
Wow... you guys are awesome. Such Eye-Openers. I had never previously considered a Full-Range design. Originally I had in mind a MTM (like Dr. K's MTM) or TMWW (like Wayne's Veritas) sort of deal, but the Full-Range idea is intriguing, and unique (I really dig things that are a little different). Not to mention the cost is quite appealing.

Can someone give me a link (or a brief description) to a site that talks about the sound qualities of Full-Range speakers vs. traditional 2 or 3 way speakers? I'm very interested. I love the simplicity of it, I've just never heard one before, and it seems amazing that one speaker can produce high quality sound and have enough bass to live without a subwoofer. Can full-range designs really match or outperform expensive audiophile type speakers? Is there a reason that the full-range drivers in those designs are relatively cheap?

Man, you guys have got me even more excited to choose and build my next pair of speakers. I gotta get going on that Foreplay preamp so I can get this system together and listen!!

Have a look here:
http://melhuish.org/audio/

Lots of information that will provide you with a good introduction into the world of single-driver speakers -it provided mine a few years back! However, a couple of friendly words of warning:
a) Not all of the information on this site is overly accurate, so take with a very large pinch of salt, and
b) Please beware the DIY projects section. Most of the designs presented there really aren't up to much I'm afraid, or are very highly specialised -something their enthusiastic builders understandably omit to mention. That DIY section hasn't been updated for a long time in any case, and, particularly in the case of transmission lines / TQWTs things have moved on a long way since the last design was posted -we can do much, much better than these now. As such, I'd leave well alone, at least at first. The design I mentioned in my last post is way superior to anything on this site.

So, you were asking if single, full-range drivers really can match or outperform 'audiophile type' speakers? Oh yes. They can indeed, because good-quality single driver systems using Fostex or Lowther drivers ARE audiophile type speakers. The original audiophile type speakers in fact. People often struggle to believe single driver systems can do the high and bass ranges properly - they can. Extemely well when provided with a properly designed cabinet. Most of the drivers are extremely light you see, and have hugely powerful magnets -added bonus: high efficiency.

A few ideas / thoughts on the benefits of single v multi-driver setups. As a rule, you tend to get superior imaging with single-driver systems, as they are a genuine point-source -a real holy grail of hifi; everything comes from a single location. No crossover means phase coherence -there's no problems trying to split up the signal, because it isn't being split up in the first place. They also have massive dynamics thanks to their light cones and huge magnets, which also makes them very efficient.

Why are the full-range units generally suggested cheap -well, you asked for s system with an all-up price of $400, so we obliged! But cheap doesn't mean poor. The best full-rangers are made by Lowther. Their entry level driver costs, per unit (not pair, and grab a brandy) slightly over your top $400 budget. And that's just the entry level unit. However, Fostex are not a poor relation -they are a very large company (Lowther is tiny, even by hifi standards, but it's the longest-running of all -some 80 years) and make a huge number of drivers, as they have since the 1970s, so thanks to economies of scale, their products provide huge performance for a odest outlay. They have a more expensive range -the Sigmas, and a top driver at entry-level Lowther prices too. As a rule, Fostex units provide 90% of the performance of Lowthers for less than half the price. Which makes them a huge bargin by anyone's standards. They are used in well-regarded horn systems costing upwards of $6500, so I wouldn't worry about their quality!

The project I suggested will give you 35Hz to around 23Khz in room. It won't do earth-shaking movie-sound effects, but it won't really need a sub either, unless you want to listen to the 32' rack on a church organ. Accoustic and rock music (except progressive rock) don't dip much below 40Hz anyway, so you won't be missing much. Looks good too. As I said in my first post, I honestly don't know of anything else near this price that gets close to it. Apart from this of course: another one of Martin's projects, using the larger 8" Fostex drivers, the FE206E or FE207E (Martin suggests the 206 because it's larger magnet will give fractionally better detail; I prefer the 207 because it needs less compensation and will go a little lower): here they are: http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project05/Project05.html
These would probably exceed your budget though. They'll shift more air and sound a little louder, but everything else is much the same -they don't really go any lower for example.

As both of these projects are transmission lines, you'll get a far purer mid-range and better-damped bass over anything a bass-reflex box can approach -that's the advantages of TLs.

Best
Scott

[MPM]

http://www.fostexspeakers.com/

Lots of information on this site for BR boxes. They have numerous designs to choose from and you get a set of plans free with each pair of speakers you purchase. They seem to toot their own horn alot but overall a good place to do business. Their Audio Nirvana has got some mixed reviews but they feel its as good/better than the Fostex. Go figure.

[Scottmoose]

Hi again -one other point has occured to me -if you decided to give Martin's ML TQWT a whirl, you have another driver option aside from the FE167E: the frequently forgotten and highly under-rated FF165K, also from Fostex.

The FF165K doesn't go as high as the 167 -it rolls off at around 17KHz.Personally, that suits my listening preferences fine -although I can still hear up to 21Khz, I prefer a slightly warmer balance, and it's really only harmonics up there anyway. If you missed the extra extension, you could always add a super-tweeter at a later date, though I doubt that you'd find it necessary.

This driver gives the best response from Martin's superb cabinet that I've ever seen -it's almost completely flat, until it smoothly rolls off just below 35Hz. Talk about beautifully damped! Ripple is in effect non-existant, and the only change required is to reduce the port-width to 2" from the original 3". The port's length remains unaltered at 1". I've added a response curve for you to peruse at leisure. My top choice for the budget-minded audiophile! (though it doesn't perform like a budget model!)

Best
Scott

[santiu]

Wow... now I'm totally excited to build a full-range speaker (hmmm, maybe I should move my inquires to the full range forum). But now I'm totally lost as to which variation I should build, or which driver to use.

You mentioned adding a super tweeter later... is that hard to do? I'm not really familiar with super tweeters. A quick search on google showed a couple, but they were all well over $1000

And, now that I think about it more, I don't mind having to add a subwoofer if I feel I need a little more low end. But I have no plans on building one until I hear what these things sound like.

The moderate price tag of these things will help me get my preamp done sooner too Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the drivers and circuit for a full-range speaker with fostex drivers will only end up costing about half of my original budget (which was $400 for drivers and circuit)