2nd Order Tweeter + 3rd Order Woofer = OK?

Jay · 9th September 2005, 09:06 AM

I used to have a crossover/speaker that I initially thought it was one of the best sounding I have ever heard. I listened to the speaker for a few days, and I felt like something was wrong but I'm not sure what it was. It was so SILENT. I could crank up the volume but the speaker DIDN'T clip as easily as normal speakers. There was no sign of resonance when I cranked up the volume. I used to power up the system at very high volume and it's amazing, there's nothing else but the vocal and music.

I left the setup because it gives me empty feeling. There's no transient at the low end (but I had not work-out the enclosure actually), but there's no fatiguing resonance either. It was like there was cancellation.

I suspected that it was a phase problem, but interchanging the poles didn't make it better (I used normal). One thing that I knew: the tweeter filter can create clear notes (usually my objective) and it can make the notes 'masked'. Because the notes were not clear in this setup, so I didn't want to go further.

The crossover was not common so I couldn't assume that everything was okay. But I need explanation, and I will look into it again soon (if I find the documentation). The crossover idea was to make the steepest slope for the woofer (due to break-ups) and joined it with tweeter with shallow slope.

And I have a few questions which have something to do with that setup:

[1] Is it possible to cross the woofer with 3rd order, and the tweeter with 2nd order (I don't know the location of the tweeter's natural roll-off though)? How about phase issue here?

[2] What do you think was happening?

Jay · 10th September 2005, 04:03 PM

I'm not sure, I found incomplete documentation regarding to the crossover. The tweeter was in-fact inverted.

With the woofer replaced with a resistor, it was the tweeter filter I could drive to the highest volume. Unfortunately the 'spacing' between notes were not clear (the reason I couldn't accept it).

I don't have the data for one of the inductor in 3rd order lowpass filter, but I have the rest so I built it today and I found out why it was so silent. It was just an increase of 1.7% capacitance to make a very steep roll-off. Whatever value the second inductor is, or whether in the enclosure or in free air, the silent effect still there.

If anyone knows that it is basically okay to have 2nd order for the tweeter and 3rd order for the woofer, I will try to work out the tweeter filter (I think I know how to make the tweeter a bit better sounding than before, in terms of notes definition).

quickshift · 11th September 2005, 06:33 PM

Don't take this as gospel as I don't have loads of experience in non-standars crossovers but...

The speakers I'm making should in theory work well with a 2O low pass on the woofer at 365, 2O high pass at 365 and 3O low pass at 4000 on the mid and 3O high pass at 4000 on the tweeter so I built the crossover as an experiment and....

It sounded bloody awful - granted it's built for different drivers but...

Basically it didn't work at all. It was very muffled and quite; any volume made the drivers buzz horribly.

Still I can use almost all the components to build a proper 2O crossover.

So, based on my experiment anyway - I don't think you can.

Unless you bi amp the speakers and have seperate filter networks.

P.S. check with someone who knows more about this stuff than me before actually doing anything about it.

Thought I would pop the above down anyway.

Jay · 12th September 2005, 12:12 PM

Ah, that's a good idea with bi-amping. I even wish I could build something like The Orion

In fact, you can find many speakers with 2nd order in woofer and 3rd order in tweeter. Probably to have better power handling capability. So I guess there should be nothing wrong with 3rd on Woofer and 2nd on tweeter. I came to remember this old setup of mine actually after looking into Van Dickason's SS reference monitor.

Oh, 3rd order! That's another good idea. I think I can get my Dynaudio D21 to work optimally giving it options to be crossed up to 4000Hz. Problem is (or was) I can't get quality midrange available. But yesterday I went to a used audio market where I saw many small mini midwoofers for car audio. May be I can find one for a midrange

Oh, and I will never give up. I will pop it up again tommorow at the latest

9th September 2005, 09:06 AM	#1
Jay diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Jakarta	2nd Order Tweeter + 3rd Order Woofer = OK? I used to have a crossover/speaker that I initially thought it was one of the best sounding I have ever heard. I listened to the speaker for a few days, and I felt like something was wrong but I'm not sure what it was. It was so SILENT. I could crank up the volume but the speaker DIDN'T clip as easily as normal speakers. There was no sign of resonance when I cranked up the volume. I used to power up the system at very high volume and it's amazing, there's nothing else but the vocal and music. I left the setup because it gives me empty feeling. There's no transient at the low end (but I had not work-out the enclosure actually), but there's no fatiguing resonance either. It was like there was cancellation. I suspected that it was a phase problem, but interchanging the poles didn't make it better (I used normal). One thing that I knew: the tweeter filter can create clear notes (usually my objective) and it can make the notes 'masked'. Because the notes were not clear in this setup, so I didn't want to go further. The crossover was not common so I couldn't assume that everything was okay. But I need explanation, and I will look into it again soon (if I find the documentation). The crossover idea was to make the steepest slope for the woofer (due to break-ups) and joined it with tweeter with shallow slope. And I have a few questions which have something to do with that setup: [1] Is it possible to cross the woofer with 3rd order, and the tweeter with 2nd order (I don't know the location of the tweeter's natural roll-off though)? How about phase issue here? [2] What do you think was happening?

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10th September 2005, 04:03 PM	#2
Jay diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Jakarta	I'm not sure, I found incomplete documentation regarding to the crossover. The tweeter was in-fact inverted. With the woofer replaced with a resistor, it was the tweeter filter I could drive to the highest volume. Unfortunately the 'spacing' between notes were not clear (the reason I couldn't accept it). I don't have the data for one of the inductor in 3rd order lowpass filter, but I have the rest so I built it today and I found out why it was so silent. It was just an increase of 1.7% capacitance to make a very steep roll-off. Whatever value the second inductor is, or whether in the enclosure or in free air, the silent effect still there. If anyone knows that it is basically okay to have 2nd order for the tweeter and 3rd order for the woofer, I will try to work out the tweeter filter (I think I know how to make the tweeter a bit better sounding than before, in terms of notes definition).

11th September 2005, 06:33 PM	#3
quickshift diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: West London	Don't take this as gospel as I don't have loads of experience in non-standars crossovers but... The speakers I'm making should in theory work well with a 2O low pass on the woofer at 365, 2O high pass at 365 and 3O low pass at 4000 on the mid and 3O high pass at 4000 on the tweeter so I built the crossover as an experiment and.... It sounded bloody awful - granted it's built for different drivers but... Basically it didn't work at all. It was very muffled and quite; any volume made the drivers buzz horribly. Still I can use almost all the components to build a proper 2O crossover. So, based on my experiment anyway - I don't think you can. Unless you bi amp the speakers and have seperate filter networks. P.S. check with someone who knows more about this stuff than me before actually doing anything about it. Thought I would pop the above down anyway.

12th September 2005, 12:12 PM	#4
Jay diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Jakarta	Ah, that's a good idea with bi-amping. I even wish I could build something like The Orion In fact, you can find many speakers with 2nd order in woofer and 3rd order in tweeter. Probably to have better power handling capability. So I guess there should be nothing wrong with 3rd on Woofer and 2nd on tweeter. I came to remember this old setup of mine actually after looking into Van Dickason's SS reference monitor. Oh, 3rd order! That's another good idea. I think I can get my Dynaudio D21 to work optimally giving it options to be crossed up to 4000Hz. Problem is (or was) I can't get quality midrange available. But yesterday I went to a used audio market where I saw many small mini midwoofers for car audio. May be I can find one for a midrange Oh, and I will never give up. I will pop it up again tommorow at the latest