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Old 9th September 2005, 08:06 PM   #21
Vil is offline Vil
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Hi Paco ,

thanks for ideas . you are probably right , i need to try other amps for sure . DAC stage is very good , probably the best what I can get at the moment (even at very big $$) and there is no jitter isues or something similar .
Also I am using linear phase xover - computer based design + 3 stereo dac's and mid frequency sounds just amaizing .
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Old 9th September 2005, 08:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: Harsh sound

Quote:
Originally posted by Paco
Hi Vil,
It very strange that the OWII sound harsh, I know this tweeter and I wouldnít say itís harsh at all. Itís hyper-analytic but not harsh. The problem with this hyper-analysis is that any harsh coming from the electronics will be shown with extreme clarity and the sound will be unpleasing. I think that using a ribbon could make things even worse.

Regards,
Paco
well then don't have poor electronics
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Old 9th September 2005, 08:57 PM   #23
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I still think this will run with the PHL or ATC for my money, unless you need 130dB in your listening room....looks fine to me out to 3khz if need be.

but I have never heard either of them, just going off FR plots. what woofer did you use again? to get anywhere near the sensitivity of the PHL and your diy tweeter
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Old 10th September 2005, 02:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gavin_mi
I still think this will run with the PHL or ATC for my money, unless you need 130dB in your listening room....looks fine to me out to 3khz if need be.

but I have never heard either of them, just going off FR plots. what woofer did you use again? to get anywhere near the sensitivity of the PHL and your diy tweeter

FR plots only take you so far...

Look at the M15 at Mark K's... 3khz is fine... but I would do a steep slope... and it's pretty inefficent in comparison....

the REAL FR of the M15 doesn't look anywhere near Seas' plots
and the M15 doesn't really have anything over the PHL in distortion... in fact the main midrange area the PHL has less than it does

can't give away all my secrets in one post

the woofers I use are hand built drivers. and are 98db/w with faraday rings.... very very low distortion and very very very transparent.

ask thylantar about his side by side tests with the Seas Excel, PHL, Audax PR17, and Focal audicom (or w/e it's called).... blind tests behind a grill cloth with a bunch of his friends

The problem I and everyone who heard all those speakers had with the Seas is that it really didn't sound better than the PHL, even though the FR is slightly prettier....

our minds are trained persay to feel that dynamics and such are more in line with actual music (a guitar with no amps is like 95db efficent)

the difference in SQ is staggeringly small between the two... the problem I HAVE with the Seas is that when you buy it (more expensive I might add also) you're limiting the rest of your system... you will have to level down the best sounding midbass and a beautiful sounding ribbon to match it's inefficency.... this is rather wasteful in my opinion and a lot of the dynamics and transparency are lot
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Old 10th September 2005, 07:21 AM   #25
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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Audiophilenoob,

I appreciate your argument for the importance of achieving high SPL and dynamics, but you are confouding the issue by using sensitivity as an argument for sound quality.

I could give you 101 examples of high SPL speakers designed for the great outdoors and stage/PA use that would run circles around any hifi driver.

But what's the critical difference here. In home use, we're willing to give up a little SPL for lower linear (FR) distortion and non-linear (harmonic) distortion.

Because SPL depends on listening distance. And in the home, we're listening at typically <5 metres, not >10 or even 20-50metres.

Ok, so if you like valve amplifiers then fair enough, I can see a reason to use high efficiency drivers. But as long as we have have enough power to drive our speakers to life-like levels we're happy.
It doesn't really matter how we achieve high SPL or dynamics eg.
Low power amps and high sensitivity speakers, or high power amps and low sensitivity speakers. Or high power amps and high sensitivity speakers.

What's really important is the bigger picture: the distortions at any given SPL level

Suppose that at 1m and 100dB, driver A plays cleaner than driver B.
Driver A needs 20W to reach that level because it's sensitivity is 87dB/W/m. Driver B has higher sensitivity- 97dB/W/m, and only needs 2Watts.

But driver B has higher 3rd and higher order distortion.

And in terms of distortion, please have a closer look at Mark K's test. Apart from that excellent (and inexplicable) performance at 850Hz, the PHL has higher 3rd and higher order harmonic distortion. The audibility of higher order distortion is well documented.

The linear distortion (start-stop time) is also slightly poorer, although this is rather close, and can be improved by equalizing for flat FR. (FR and linear distortion are related)

Finally, Mark K concludes himself that the PHL 1120 is NOT better than the SEAS M15, contrary to your interpretation of his tests.
He says:
"[the PHL 1120 is] Not as good as the M15, but as good as, or maybe better than the SS8545. Where the PHL excels is sensitivity. I measured a sensitivity of ~95 dB for the PHL. Certainly, if you need the sensitivity, this is a respectable driver. If you don't need the sensitivity, there are other drivers that test better."

If you're running low powered amplifiers it's a good choice.
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Old 10th September 2005, 04:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by tktran


Finally, Mark K concludes himself that the PHL 1120 is NOT better than the SEAS M15, contrary to your interpretation of his tests.
He says:
"[the PHL 1120 is] Not as good as the M15, but as good as, or maybe better than the SS8545. Where the PHL excels is sensitivity. I measured a sensitivity of ~95 dB for the PHL. Certainly, if you need the sensitivity, this is a respectable driver. If you don't need the sensitivity, there are other drivers that test better."


non-linear at 850hz is the lowest on the PHL of any speakers tested

Mark K says that simply because the M15 for the midrange area does do the best low and fairly high (2khz) .... well 2nd best to the W15

I really don't need Mark K to tell me what's correct here

it's quite obvious what drivers perform best in the ACTUAL midrange from 500-2.5khz... or higher...

the M15 is good... but so comparable to the PHL that it's not even worth mentioning any differences (non-linear given to the PHL from the looks of it)...

the M15 is better lower... the PHL is better higher....

and it just so happens that even people with years and years of experience still pick the PHL in blind tests.... It simply for some reason sounds more natural

I really don't even understand why this is troublesome to you... the numbers speak for themselves... and the FR that the PHL is supposed to be used in 400-5khz.... It really does very well...

In fact it IS the lowest non-linear distortion speaker right around 700-1khz
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Old 10th September 2005, 04:27 PM   #27
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I vote for Morel MW266 because i already have a pair of them.
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Old 10th September 2005, 04:42 PM   #28
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Hi Tktran,

I've also seen that distortion chart for the ATC mid. But I think it's nonsense. The 2nd harmonic distortion at about 1.5kHz shows 1%. At 1kHz it's heading up to about 10%! And that's at the 80dB level!
ATC and others cross it at 380Hz. I can't believe that they would use that x-over frequency if the driver was producing more distortion than signal!

Something's fishy here...

Cheers, Ralph
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Old 10th September 2005, 06:25 PM   #29
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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Default Graphs and measurement interpretation

Audiophilenoob:
Quote:
I really don't even understand why this is troublesome to you...
With any kind of measurements it is important to know what we are measuring, whether it is a valid test ie. does it actually measure what we want it to measure, how to interpret the results, and finally, what conclusions can we draw from our interpretations.

I don't agree with your conclusion of Mark K's PHL1120 vs SEAS M15.

While I agree with the uncanny performance of the PHL 1120 at 850Hz, how can we dismiss the other results? Even if it's limited to a few other frequencies, they are just as much "midrange" as 850Hz.

Let me be clear of what I'm talking about. What musicians call Middle C is 262Hz, and the first A above this is 440Hz.

In the studio, the commonly accepted definition of midrange is 160Hz to 1280Hz.

Freq, Pitch
20-40, Low bass
40-80, Mid bass
80-160, Upper bass
160-320, Lower midrange
320-640, Middle midrange
640-1280, Upper mids
1.28-2.56K, Low treble
2.56-5.12K, Middle treble
5.12-10.24K, Upper treble
10-20K, Top octave.

Ralph:
Please look at the graph again. The THD levels has been raised by 20dB for clarity. At ~1.5Khz, the 2f is 60dB, not 80dB.

The ATC is probably a good driver. Probably up there with the best of them.




I'd think the ATC it would be a very nice driver. But is it the best? Not sure.

What I am sure of is this. It's very expensive, has a rather large frame and hard to find.
Being such are large tweeter, it's main advantage would be down low. I'd like to see how if it measures up to other large "mid-domes" like the Morel MDM-55 2" mid-dome, SS 1.5" D3806/8200, or other 1" tweeters that perform well down low (SEAS T25-25CF002, ?Dayton RS-28A)

Just my 2c
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Old 11th September 2005, 12:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: Graphs and measurement interpretation

Quote:
Originally posted by tktran
Audiophilenoob:



In the studio, the commonly accepted definition of midrange is 160Hz to 1280Hz.



this is ludicrous IMO

the PHL was neither designed to do this or ever MEANT For this type of play

Like I said.... it's application based... both the ATC and PHL will have more SQL than the M15 or w15 and that's a fact

both can be crossed higher with superior results

if you need 160hz play.... why even consider the PHL? unless you do a dual 1120 setup it's not even meant below 400hz!

I can easily "throw" out the only frequencies that show the M15's superiority because the PHL wasn't MEANT to play them at all

you need to look to better midbasses to mate with it... or go with the IMO inferior seas products.... there's nothing wrong with using a 15" midbass like I am (best available in any size for the purpose IMO and quite a few others) and having it play to 400-500hz...

it certianly SOUNDS fantastic... better than having the midrange play lower frequencies! even if they play them well

in the frequencies that the PHL was MEANT to play... it does so better than the M15... AND it's a more dynamic speaker

try to find a ribbon to mate at 1200hz to a midrange.... you won't like what kind of distortion it has there.... AND it generally sounds LESS NATURAL than a 2-3khz xover

a dome like the Seas millenium could do it... but again you would probably cry if you saw distortion specs at that frequency... and it DRASTICALLY reduces dynamic capabilites and SPL from my experience with the Seas Millenium
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