Hi all
This is my first post in this forum.
I have been reading alot of the posts in the loudspeaker section and it seems to be a quite nice place and it also seems as a lot of you are quite skilled at making DIY speakers.
I am posting this post because for a long time I have thinking of getting my speakers replaced, because I am not that happy with the bass area. Though I am quite happy with the mid and treble area. The speaker I have currently is a pair of Snell J IV which I am using with a musical fidelity x-r100a and a Vincent cd-s3.
First I decided to look at some comercial made speakers, but in my search I stumbled over alot of DIY speakers and thought that this could be fun.
I have been thinking of the Ariel, thor and the proac clone mostly because they are the most documented speakers I have been able to find.
Though the thors will probably be to expensive and I am also quite concerned about the ariel's because the look as they are quite difficult to build.
At the moment I am kind of hocked at the proac clone because the cabinett looks quite easy to build and I have also read some threads here where people are saying they are good with rock and that is what I play the most. This is also a concern with the ariel's which I have read that a lot of people think will need a sub for rock.
What do you think of my choice with the proace clone? I am here thinking of my taste in music and my setup?
Also about the proac clone I have not been able to figure out to use braces or not to and if were to place them or it. The official page about the proac does not say much about this?
If you have some pros and cons considering building the ariel, the thor and the proac clone I would appriciate it!
If you could suggest others I would be happy also if you could direct me to some sites besides the official about the proac I would be happy
Regards
Seve
This is my first post in this forum.
I have been reading alot of the posts in the loudspeaker section and it seems to be a quite nice place and it also seems as a lot of you are quite skilled at making DIY speakers.
I am posting this post because for a long time I have thinking of getting my speakers replaced, because I am not that happy with the bass area. Though I am quite happy with the mid and treble area. The speaker I have currently is a pair of Snell J IV which I am using with a musical fidelity x-r100a and a Vincent cd-s3.
First I decided to look at some comercial made speakers, but in my search I stumbled over alot of DIY speakers and thought that this could be fun.
I have been thinking of the Ariel, thor and the proac clone mostly because they are the most documented speakers I have been able to find.
Though the thors will probably be to expensive and I am also quite concerned about the ariel's because the look as they are quite difficult to build.
At the moment I am kind of hocked at the proac clone because the cabinett looks quite easy to build and I have also read some threads here where people are saying they are good with rock and that is what I play the most. This is also a concern with the ariel's which I have read that a lot of people think will need a sub for rock.
What do you think of my choice with the proace clone? I am here thinking of my taste in music and my setup?
Also about the proac clone I have not been able to figure out to use braces or not to and if were to place them or it. The official page about the proac does not say much about this?
If you have some pros and cons considering building the ariel, the thor and the proac clone I would appriciate it!
If you could suggest others I would be happy also if you could direct me to some sites besides the official about the proac I would be happy
Regards
Seve
ProAc Response series
I myself own a pair of ProAc Response 1S (latest model is 1SC) and very happy with it throughout the years especially its mid and treble; and also the width of the sound stage. This speaker can easily "disappear". However, the bass, as you can imagine, is quite inadequate. (I must admit that this bookshelf speaker at this size has have extraordinary bass performance already). Up the Response series you will encounter they match up the bass performance with higher model. Like you, I'm very interested to build a 2.5 clone because I love ProAc sound very much. I'll definitely give it a try after I finished my diy poweramp.
I used MF to drive my 1S too. It is a class-A amp and I found only class-A and tube amp is good for it. People say ProAc people use AudioResearch tube amp to tweak their speaker.
Regards,
Wallace
I myself own a pair of ProAc Response 1S (latest model is 1SC) and very happy with it throughout the years especially its mid and treble; and also the width of the sound stage. This speaker can easily "disappear". However, the bass, as you can imagine, is quite inadequate. (I must admit that this bookshelf speaker at this size has have extraordinary bass performance already). Up the Response series you will encounter they match up the bass performance with higher model. Like you, I'm very interested to build a 2.5 clone because I love ProAc sound very much. I'll definitely give it a try after I finished my diy poweramp.
I used MF to drive my 1S too. It is a class-A amp and I found only class-A and tube amp is good for it. People say ProAc people use AudioResearch tube amp to tweak their speaker.
Regards,
Wallace
I think if you are happy with your treble and mids; I would go with a sub: if that is feasable in your system. It is very impracticle and hard to achieve good bass in an all in one speaker design. Good bass needs a large woofer and a larger cabinet. With a seperate design you can always adjust the volume of the bass to suit music styles and movie pleasure. I myself have the ARdiy.com (Ed Frias design) mains (I built these and they sound excellent) and supplemented it with a diy Tempest (15") sub. I'm estatic with the sound.
Hi MCH thanks for the suggestion.
I probably would get a really deep bass with a sub, but I don't think that sub effects is what I am looking for.
The problem with my speakers is that I find the bass muddy and not fast(I don't know if this is the right words but this is what I feel when I am hearing music)
The subs I have heard all have had the same problem with fastness and some of them with the muddy sound. Though I will say that I have not heard that many subs and most of them have been cheap subs, which was a part of a cheap sourround system.
I will only be using the speakers for music
Also I think that it could be fun trying to build my own speakers
Regards
Seve
I probably would get a really deep bass with a sub, but I don't think that sub effects is what I am looking for.
The problem with my speakers is that I find the bass muddy and not fast(I don't know if this is the right words but this is what I feel when I am hearing music)
The subs I have heard all have had the same problem with fastness and some of them with the muddy sound. Though I will say that I have not heard that many subs and most of them have been cheap subs, which was a part of a cheap sourround system.
I will only be using the speakers for music
Also I think that it could be fun trying to build my own speakers
Regards
Seve
sub
I don't think you would be disappointed with a diy subwoofer. A quality 10 or 12 inch driver would be fast enough to keep up with your speakers, and would provide more than just deep bass. I have a 12 inch Shiva from Adire Audio, and I can't believe the difference compared to all of the commercial offerings out there. It plays what is supposed to be played, not a bunch of noise like you hear out of most commercial subs.
When my neighbor first got his 15" velodyne, I thought something was wrong with my sub because his was so much louder. I realized after seeing some live performances that his sub was the one that wasn't accurately reproducing the music.
If your speakers can reach down to 80-100Hz or even less, a sub would be a perfect mate. Not only that, but a subwoofer is easier to get right than a set of speakers for a first project.
Good Luck,
Austin
I don't think you would be disappointed with a diy subwoofer. A quality 10 or 12 inch driver would be fast enough to keep up with your speakers, and would provide more than just deep bass. I have a 12 inch Shiva from Adire Audio, and I can't believe the difference compared to all of the commercial offerings out there. It plays what is supposed to be played, not a bunch of noise like you hear out of most commercial subs.
When my neighbor first got his 15" velodyne, I thought something was wrong with my sub because his was so much louder. I realized after seeing some live performances that his sub was the one that wasn't accurately reproducing the music.
If your speakers can reach down to 80-100Hz or even less, a sub would be a perfect mate. Not only that, but a subwoofer is easier to get right than a set of speakers for a first project.
Good Luck,
Austin
Hi Austin
Could you please direct me to some nice places with easy good sounding DIY subs?
I was kind of hocked at the proac clone but I would like to take a look at some subs before I decide on which way to go. Perhaps you could be right it would be an idea trying a sub if that's easier as first project.
The thing I am most worried about with the speaker is the crossover how difficult is that?
Regards
Seve
Could you please direct me to some nice places with easy good sounding DIY subs?
I was kind of hocked at the proac clone but I would like to take a look at some subs before I decide on which way to go. Perhaps you could be right it would be an idea trying a sub if that's easier as first project.
The thing I am most worried about with the speaker is the crossover how difficult is that?
Regards
Seve
Hello,
If you pick a proven tested design and clone it you should get good results. You would just have to follow the plans and the crossover should not be a problem at all.
If you are thinking about building a set of speakers from ground up you might be in for a long session of never ending crossover tweaks. You got a couple way to do it actually. One, is to have someone with software to simulate a crossover for you. Two, look at different crossovers and build one and try it out. Three, build a cabinet and then have someone measure the drivers and create a crossover. Four, get measuring equipment and do it all yourself.
Simulated crossover is not going to be the optimal crossover, but it will be a good starting point and depending on your driver selection you could end up with a good sounding speaker. Measuring the drivers in your particular cabinet and then creating a crossover is probably the best way to go. Or you could just clone a speaker of course .
Jean
If you pick a proven tested design and clone it you should get good results. You would just have to follow the plans and the crossover should not be a problem at all.
If you are thinking about building a set of speakers from ground up you might be in for a long session of never ending crossover tweaks. You got a couple way to do it actually. One, is to have someone with software to simulate a crossover for you. Two, look at different crossovers and build one and try it out. Three, build a cabinet and then have someone measure the drivers and create a crossover. Four, get measuring equipment and do it all yourself.
Simulated crossover is not going to be the optimal crossover, but it will be a good starting point and depending on your driver selection you could end up with a good sounding speaker. Measuring the drivers in your particular cabinet and then creating a crossover is probably the best way to go. Or you could just clone a speaker of course .
Jean
Hi Jean
At the moment I will stick with a proven design that's why I have looked at the Ariel, Thor and Proac clone. The proac is proably going to be the choice if I decide to build a pair speakers because of difficulty and price. I think it will be over my abilities to do the design from ground up.
I think I will start by making a list of what I will need and then see where I can get it and to which prices.
REgards
Seve
At the moment I will stick with a proven design that's why I have looked at the Ariel, Thor and Proac clone. The proac is proably going to be the choice if I decide to build a pair speakers because of difficulty and price. I think it will be over my abilities to do the design from ground up.
I think I will start by making a list of what I will need and then see where I can get it and to which prices.
REgards
Seve
Isn't Musical Fidelity SS
The reason I ask is that the Ariel is "voiced" for SET tubes. If I remember correctly, Lynn Olson stated that Ariels don't sound good with Carey amps ( a well known tube manufacturer). I thought about building them (ME2 actually) to go with my HT but didn't in the end because the HT is SS.
I do think that the goodly amount of development in the Ariel/ME2 indicates a high probability that you would be happy with them if you were using SET tubes to push them. However, unless you go to the ME2 you need excellent woodworking ability or the ability to pay for it.
I believe Ariel/ME2 using a SS amp has a high risk of too much grief to get them sounding well.
Hope this helps.
Ken L
The reason I ask is that the Ariel is "voiced" for SET tubes. If I remember correctly, Lynn Olson stated that Ariels don't sound good with Carey amps ( a well known tube manufacturer). I thought about building them (ME2 actually) to go with my HT but didn't in the end because the HT is SS.
I do think that the goodly amount of development in the Ariel/ME2 indicates a high probability that you would be happy with them if you were using SET tubes to push them. However, unless you go to the ME2 you need excellent woodworking ability or the ability to pay for it.
I believe Ariel/ME2 using a SS amp has a high risk of too much grief to get them sounding well.
Hope this helps.
Ken L
Yes Musical fidelity is SS or at least mine is because not all of them is.
That was also one of the things that worried me about the Ariel, but I have read a few people saying that their ariel sound great with their SS that's why I put them amongst the ones I was considering so that I could here your opinion.. Though I think Lynn Olson knows what he's taking about and it will probably be hard to build aswell.
Regards
Seve
That was also one of the things that worried me about the Ariel, but I have read a few people saying that their ariel sound great with their SS that's why I put them amongst the ones I was considering so that I could here your opinion.. Though I think Lynn Olson knows what he's taking about and it will probably be hard to build aswell.
Regards
Seve
if you have the budget for a thor nothing like it (or very few designs like it).
as you know there are 2 ways to skin this cat:
build a better speaker
build a nice sub and let the snells handle only freq above 80 or 100 Hz.
the first means scraping the snells (or maybe using them as rar speakers in a HT project or anothter system). It also means that you might as well go for a system that will satisfy your bass needs better (2.5 way). There are a few 2.5 way systems using SEAS 18e and SS 854x drivers that you can consider. The Thor and Rhythm (from North Creek) are 2 of these. there is a dutch site with other options like the Premium 33 and other options too.
if you want to build a sub and save the snells I'd recomend a sub using a 8" or 10" from SS or Peerless CSX. from what I can understand of your needs you dont feel the need for 120db. In this case a smaller woofer or 2 might actually suit your needs better than a 12 or 15"
as you know there are 2 ways to skin this cat:
build a better speaker
build a nice sub and let the snells handle only freq above 80 or 100 Hz.
the first means scraping the snells (or maybe using them as rar speakers in a HT project or anothter system). It also means that you might as well go for a system that will satisfy your bass needs better (2.5 way). There are a few 2.5 way systems using SEAS 18e and SS 854x drivers that you can consider. The Thor and Rhythm (from North Creek) are 2 of these. there is a dutch site with other options like the Premium 33 and other options too.
if you want to build a sub and save the snells I'd recomend a sub using a 8" or 10" from SS or Peerless CSX. from what I can understand of your needs you dont feel the need for 120db. In this case a smaller woofer or 2 might actually suit your needs better than a 12 or 15"
Hi Navin
Thanks for the suggestions.
As it looks now I will probably go for new pair of speakers instead of adding a sub. I think I will be most happy with that solution also because I probalby will get better mids, treb along with a better bass.
I like the things beeing said about the Thor but I find it to expensive for my first project.
I have looked at the Rhythm from North Creek I think it looks good but have not been able to find much info about it besides the info on the north creek side and I would like to be able to buy in Denmark or at least Europe.
I am still most hocked at the proac clone because of the nice reviews and that it can be made kind of cheap. I hope I can find someone near where I live that would let me hear them! (I live in Denmark, Aalborg)
You are talking about it could be an idea moving to 2.5 way instead of the 2 way as the proac is will that give a much better bass and if why? I can see the idea about a 3 way with a dedicated driver to bass could give a deeper bass will the 2.5 way give a better bass because there is 2 drives for the mid/bass area instead of just one?
Regards
Seve
Thanks for the suggestions.
As it looks now I will probably go for new pair of speakers instead of adding a sub. I think I will be most happy with that solution also because I probalby will get better mids, treb along with a better bass.
I like the things beeing said about the Thor but I find it to expensive for my first project.
I have looked at the Rhythm from North Creek I think it looks good but have not been able to find much info about it besides the info on the north creek side and I would like to be able to buy in Denmark or at least Europe.
I am still most hocked at the proac clone because of the nice reviews and that it can be made kind of cheap. I hope I can find someone near where I live that would let me hear them! (I live in Denmark, Aalborg)
You are talking about it could be an idea moving to 2.5 way instead of the 2 way as the proac is will that give a much better bass and if why? I can see the idea about a 3 way with a dedicated driver to bass could give a deeper bass will the 2.5 way give a better bass because there is 2 drives for the mid/bass area instead of just one?
Regards
Seve
bass is one part of the story.
since you are braching that topic let me deal with that first.
bass is a function of movig air.
2 6" woofers will move twice as much air as 1 6" woofer and hence will be able to deliver same bass levels wiht only half linear cone movement. that means better control.
using 2.5 way mean no difraction compensation circuit (using inductors and resistors) as second woofer is the difaction compensation circuit. to my ears these extra passive components colour the sound esp. the high value inductor in series with the woofer.
2.5 way solves 2 problems bass as well as difraction compensation.
there is no free lunch. 2.5 way also has a more complex impedance curve so yo need a big amp to compensatte for that.
since you are braching that topic let me deal with that first.
bass is a function of movig air.
2 6" woofers will move twice as much air as 1 6" woofer and hence will be able to deliver same bass levels wiht only half linear cone movement. that means better control.
using 2.5 way mean no difraction compensation circuit (using inductors and resistors) as second woofer is the difaction compensation circuit. to my ears these extra passive components colour the sound esp. the high value inductor in series with the woofer.
2.5 way solves 2 problems bass as well as difraction compensation.
there is no free lunch. 2.5 way also has a more complex impedance curve so yo need a big amp to compensatte for that.
navin said:
The amp doesn't have to be bigger, just be able to handle low impedance, complex loads -- so a higher quality as opposed to higher power is what is needed.
And if you mount the 2nd driver on the front you get some phase anomilies as the 0.5 woofer rolls off thru 90 degrees. If you mount the 2nd driver on the back, the roll-off is hidden by the enclosure and you can take advantage of push-push driver mounting.
dave
navin said:
The Dutch site is http://www.audiocomponents.nl
A kit which uses a peerless woofer and a slave is the one you can find on http://www.hifisound.de/bausatz/intertechnik/xa12s/info.pdf
that is an interesting take - second driver in the back.
it would mean the rear of teh cabinet be wide enough to accomodate the second driver (no more tear drop shapes).
if the second driver is in the back it would have to be wired so that when the front drvier ires forward it fires backward (in the opposite direction as the front driver)? right?
it would mean the rear of teh cabinet be wide enough to accomodate the second driver (no more tear drop shapes).
if the second driver is in the back it would have to be wired so that when the front drvier ires forward it fires backward (in the opposite direction as the front driver)? right?
I am really happy for all the input.
I really appriciated the explaniations about the 2 way and 2.5 way.
I think I will stick with a 2-way design because of the money and I am also taking in mind that it's my first project and I don't know how it will end up. Later on I could perhaps try something different. The drivers in the proac clone could they be used in a 2.5 way or 3 way system later on and if you know some proven systems please let me know?
As I see it the proac clone could be keept cheaper in parts than the others and what I have heard and read sofar it's an overall quite good speaker for a 2 way also concerning the bass.
Thanks for all the input
Regards
Seve
I really appriciated the explaniations about the 2 way and 2.5 way.
I think I will stick with a 2-way design because of the money and I am also taking in mind that it's my first project and I don't know how it will end up. Later on I could perhaps try something different. The drivers in the proac clone could they be used in a 2.5 way or 3 way system later on and if you know some proven systems please let me know?
As I see it the proac clone could be keept cheaper in parts than the others and what I have heard and read sofar it's an overall quite good speaker for a 2 way also concerning the bass.
Thanks for all the input
Regards
Seve
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.