Just out of curiosity and in my never ending search for the perfect tweeter I have bought some second hand Yamaha berylium that came out of the NS1000 loudspeakers.
They sound quite awfull in fact, very nasty agressive sound without any detail and real top end extension. Does anyone have any experience with tweaking these tweeters like damping behind the dome, adding or removing ferro fluid (don't think it has any), coating the domes, removing the dispersion plastic in front of the dome etc.
Any experience is very welcome
(nomatter at what cost, from cheap to very expensive, still haven't found a tweeter that's perfect, i'll keep on searching, any recommendations are welcome)
They sound quite awfull in fact, very nasty agressive sound without any detail and real top end extension. Does anyone have any experience with tweaking these tweeters like damping behind the dome, adding or removing ferro fluid (don't think it has any), coating the domes, removing the dispersion plastic in front of the dome etc.
Any experience is very welcome
(nomatter at what cost, from cheap to very expensive, still haven't found a tweeter that's perfect, i'll keep on searching, any recommendations are welcome)
Here they say there are stressed second hand tweeters from 1000Ms that sound fizzy.
''Look for 'one careful owner' and avoid examples that sound fizzy it's a sign of a distressed Beryllium driver just about to die. Replacements are readily available from Yamaha Electronics (tel: 01923 233166) but expensive.''
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/yamahans1000m.html
''Look for 'one careful owner' and avoid examples that sound fizzy it's a sign of a distressed Beryllium driver just about to die. Replacements are readily available from Yamaha Electronics (tel: 01923 233166) but expensive.''
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/yamahans1000m.html
Hi Salas,
thanks for your reply. I've heard about the distressed berylium before and also have read the article you refering to. In this same article the autor mentioned that the NS1000 could sound very fizzy on transistor amps and very good on tube amps. I think that my tweeters would indeed be sounding better on a "old fashioned" tube amp in that way that it would soften the sound of them a lot. Unfortunatly I'm using them on a "modern" designed 300B se amp wich does not sound as rounded off at the highs as the "old fashioned" tube amps do.
Too bad I don't have the opportunity to compare them to a pair of very good conserved or reconed tweeters, so at the moment I can only guess that either the berylium is weared out or that the tweeters have a nasty characteristic on their own.
thanks for your reply. I've heard about the distressed berylium before and also have read the article you refering to. In this same article the autor mentioned that the NS1000 could sound very fizzy on transistor amps and very good on tube amps. I think that my tweeters would indeed be sounding better on a "old fashioned" tube amp in that way that it would soften the sound of them a lot. Unfortunatly I'm using them on a "modern" designed 300B se amp wich does not sound as rounded off at the highs as the "old fashioned" tube amps do.
Too bad I don't have the opportunity to compare them to a pair of very good conserved or reconed tweeters, so at the moment I can only guess that either the berylium is weared out or that the tweeters have a nasty characteristic on their own.
There is no former in the voice coil, just the flat wire and adhesive. It's a very low mass assembly. This also makes them very delicate where overpower is concerned (read clipping). Yes, they are expensive.
There is a good chance they are damaged. Run a low level oscillator tone up to see if it buzzes anywhere. They shouldn't.
-Chris
There is a good chance they are damaged. Run a low level oscillator tone up to see if it buzzes anywhere. They shouldn't.
-Chris
Did you ever try a ribbon array? Its super clean and has body.
You probably got irritated by 3rd order dome artefacts in many tweeters.
Another suggestion is to use 5 good mini metal mid-tweeters packed closely in a horizontal Bessel array. You must invert the 2nd and 4th. There are cheap good ones from Tangband.
5 drivers will make THD drop very much and increase the dispersion to about 170 degrees. Power handling and excursion will be greatly improved.
Anatech:
I have just checked the domes with a function generator, there's no rattling, at least not in the usefull frequency range, they start rattling at 500Hz but that's probably because they can't handle that anyway. Yamaha used the tweeters in combination with the berylium mid domes from 6kHz upwards, I'm trying to use them with a pair of PHL 1220's from 3kHz upwards, maybe that's part of the problem. Don't know if they where designed to handle that, they should be able to. I have measured the freq response and it has -3dB points at 2kHz and 18kHz !
Salas:
The bessel arry sound interesting but I have my preservations against those cheap maetal cone tweeters, what type are you referring to ?
And, yes you are wright about the dome tweeters, I haven't heard any dome tweeter in my entire life wich I really liked, there's just something "not real" from the sound of them, even from the most ridiculous expensive ones. they all have that very "artificial" sound around them, I like ribbons and horns more sofar.
At the moment I'm looking at some Goto horns but I would like to hear them before I buy because they are pretty expensive and I don't know if I can live with thos narrow dispersion (didn't like the Visaton TL16H because of that) I'm looking for something to combine with a Phy-Hp 20 cm midrange on an open baffle and like to cross them at max at 4kHz, don't like what they are doing above that. (still can't believe some people are actually listening to them without any tweeter, just horrible)
I have just checked the domes with a function generator, there's no rattling, at least not in the usefull frequency range, they start rattling at 500Hz but that's probably because they can't handle that anyway. Yamaha used the tweeters in combination with the berylium mid domes from 6kHz upwards, I'm trying to use them with a pair of PHL 1220's from 3kHz upwards, maybe that's part of the problem. Don't know if they where designed to handle that, they should be able to. I have measured the freq response and it has -3dB points at 2kHz and 18kHz !
Salas:
The bessel arry sound interesting but I have my preservations against those cheap maetal cone tweeters, what type are you referring to ?
And, yes you are wright about the dome tweeters, I haven't heard any dome tweeter in my entire life wich I really liked, there's just something "not real" from the sound of them, even from the most ridiculous expensive ones. they all have that very "artificial" sound around them, I like ribbons and horns more sofar.
At the moment I'm looking at some Goto horns but I would like to hear them before I buy because they are pretty expensive and I don't know if I can live with thos narrow dispersion (didn't like the Visaton TL16H because of that) I'm looking for something to combine with a Phy-Hp 20 cm midrange on an open baffle and like to cross them at max at 4kHz, don't like what they are doing above that. (still can't believe some people are actually listening to them without any tweeter, just horrible)
Hello
I am talking about W2-800SF. Have a look at the pdf I attach. They are sold in Europe for about 18 EUR each.
I use PHL 1220 myself. Its great. But because of the hi-mid breakout in spl, when you eq it, you are left with a 2500 crosspoint, else a void between 2-3K. So I understand your need to cross the Yamaha low. I guess it is not designed to get crossed low, hence fizzy.
I am talking about W2-800SF. Have a look at the pdf I attach. They are sold in Europe for about 18 EUR each.
I use PHL 1220 myself. Its great. But because of the hi-mid breakout in spl, when you eq it, you are left with a 2500 crosspoint, else a void between 2-3K. So I understand your need to cross the Yamaha low. I guess it is not designed to get crossed low, hence fizzy.
As a "modern" alternative, maybe look at the SEAS 27TBFCG aluminum tweeter that Zaph raves about (http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17-system1.jpg) - apparently unbeatable at around $30 per from Madisound.
Or if you want to look at the stratosphere stuff like the Yamahas, but also contemporary, maybe the Accuton ceramics.
Sidebar - I have a set of Yamaha NS-670s from the same vintage as the NS-1000s, with fabric dome tweets and mids - they cost me $450 back in the 70s - some of the best money I ever spent, and I still don't plan on replacing them.
I always did want the 1000s though, and I did hear them at the dealer I bought the 670s from - all I can remember is that they sounded perfect. I may still try to find a used pair, or buy the beryllium units from Yamaha - I really wonder what could be done with them in a DIY design.
Or if you want to look at the stratosphere stuff like the Yamahas, but also contemporary, maybe the Accuton ceramics.
Sidebar - I have a set of Yamaha NS-670s from the same vintage as the NS-1000s, with fabric dome tweets and mids - they cost me $450 back in the 70s - some of the best money I ever spent, and I still don't plan on replacing them.
I always did want the 1000s though, and I did hear them at the dealer I bought the 670s from - all I can remember is that they sounded perfect. I may still try to find a used pair, or buy the beryllium units from Yamaha - I really wonder what could be done with them in a DIY design.
Actualy I know the Accuton (Thiel, Ceratec or whatever they are called, depending on country) tweeters very well, but they are still dome tweeters and still sound like dome tweeters wich I do not like.
I think I made up some confusion here in this topic. I was talking about the Yamaha's to combine with the PHL 1220's and about the search for the best available tweeter in the world to combine with my Phy-Hp fullrange (midrange as I use them) drivers. The PHL system is just my secondary speaker system, and in that system I could live with a good dome tweeter but I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on this system, for the Phy-Hp system money doesn't matter (well within certain limits offcoarse, I'm not a millionair), it just has to be bloody good.
I have heard the yamaha NS1000's a couple of times years ago and they sounded pretty good back then, much better in my memory as I'm getting out of the tweeters at this moment, but the best speaker in the world, naaaaah, don't think so.
I think I made up some confusion here in this topic. I was talking about the Yamaha's to combine with the PHL 1220's and about the search for the best available tweeter in the world to combine with my Phy-Hp fullrange (midrange as I use them) drivers. The PHL system is just my secondary speaker system, and in that system I could live with a good dome tweeter but I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on this system, for the Phy-Hp system money doesn't matter (well within certain limits offcoarse, I'm not a millionair), it just has to be bloody good.
I have heard the yamaha NS1000's a couple of times years ago and they sounded pretty good back then, much better in my memory as I'm getting out of the tweeters at this moment, but the best speaker in the world, naaaaah, don't think so.
Sjef said:
Like nearly all metal dome tweeters, the Yamahas have a so-called "diffusor" mounted in front of the dome. In reality this "diffusor" is a resonator that degrades the sound quality considerably. By trapping air between the "diffusor" and the dome, a Helmholtz resonator is created. The resulting sound is "metallic" and "harsh".
On most metal dome tweeters, it isn't too hard to remove the "diffusor" for a significant improvement in sound quality. However, the Yamahas have a metal screen in front of the "diffusor" that must be removed first to access the "diffusor". I think the screen is glued in place, but I am not sure.
Good luck, let us know your results.
It's not that I hate dome tweeters. I can live with them in my secondary system. But when it comes to realy reproducing music like it sounds in reality (I'm a sound engineer, I hear a lot in reality) then dome tweeters, or at least the ones I have heard up untill now, just don't do the job right. That's exactly what I'm missing in most commercial "High End" systems nomatter at what cost. I have heard million dollar systems fail on this. It is hard to describe what it is exactly, but I'm missing the dimension of instruments on them. It sound like it is floating in air somewhere (what High end folks like to call good imaging, they obviously don't hear much live music) but is doesn't have the attack, the weight and body and right size of the real instruments. It's hard to describe, but if you have never heard it that way you probalbly don't know better (no offence, really) and still think something like a seas millenium is the best you can get. Compare them with some Fostex T925 for example and you know what I mean. (o.k. not exactly interchangable, but it's just an example) It is not that I can not listen to them. o yes I can, as long as it play good music I can listen to anything, it's just that I think that most of the High end industry is on the wrong track at the moment.
The best highs I have heard sofar where from a Oris Horn with AER MD3 fullrange drivers. I couldn't believe it myself at first, but yes out of a 8" fullrange drivers (well one of the most expensive ones around) Too bad I don't have the room to put up a Oris Horn system, and I would also have to change my woofers cause what I have now isn't capable of playing into midrange.
Anyways, it is hard to say what is best, I fully agree. I like ribbons more but they also have disadvantages. It very hard to combine them with a good midrange in order to get a good integration and body in the upper mids. Domes are way easier to work with.
Tweeters I liked best so far are (but still not perfect) :
Raven R2 (that damn narrow vertical dispersion)
Fostex T925A and T500A
Oris Horn with AER MD3 (not a tweeter, but very good highs)
Problem is that the best highs came from the most difficult units to combine with amplifiers and midranges, too bad for me.
Over the years I have found many woofers and many midrange drivers I can live with (I can live with the PHL's as much as with the Phy-Hp's for example) , but it's getting harder and harder to find a tweeter I really like. I have spend lots and lots of money on them, just in my search for the perfect one. I think the tweeter is the most important unit of a speaker system. If you gonna build a new system, spend the best money on the tweeter and give it the best amplification you've got
O.k. back on the Yamaha. I have bought them second hand for 120 euro, not that much money, and they where intended to go with the PHL's in a small reflex system. Reason to choose for the Yamaha's where: 1: they where available at a good price 2: out of curiousity 3: a ribbon to match the PHL would be to expensive for what this system was intended for (bedroom music)
Pfffff, long post. It's not my intention to offent anyone, don't get me wrong on that please. It's just that I hope that there are more people out there that recognize my problem and are willing to admit that this tweeters they have just spend a thousand dollars on still don't sound like the real thing, it's not a shame, happened to me a lot.
The best highs I have heard sofar where from a Oris Horn with AER MD3 fullrange drivers. I couldn't believe it myself at first, but yes out of a 8" fullrange drivers (well one of the most expensive ones around) Too bad I don't have the room to put up a Oris Horn system, and I would also have to change my woofers cause what I have now isn't capable of playing into midrange.
Anyways, it is hard to say what is best, I fully agree. I like ribbons more but they also have disadvantages. It very hard to combine them with a good midrange in order to get a good integration and body in the upper mids. Domes are way easier to work with.
Tweeters I liked best so far are (but still not perfect) :
Raven R2 (that damn narrow vertical dispersion)
Fostex T925A and T500A
Oris Horn with AER MD3 (not a tweeter, but very good highs)
Problem is that the best highs came from the most difficult units to combine with amplifiers and midranges, too bad for me.
Over the years I have found many woofers and many midrange drivers I can live with (I can live with the PHL's as much as with the Phy-Hp's for example) , but it's getting harder and harder to find a tweeter I really like. I have spend lots and lots of money on them, just in my search for the perfect one. I think the tweeter is the most important unit of a speaker system. If you gonna build a new system, spend the best money on the tweeter and give it the best amplification you've got
O.k. back on the Yamaha. I have bought them second hand for 120 euro, not that much money, and they where intended to go with the PHL's in a small reflex system. Reason to choose for the Yamaha's where: 1: they where available at a good price 2: out of curiousity 3: a ribbon to match the PHL would be to expensive for what this system was intended for (bedroom music)
Pfffff, long post. It's not my intention to offent anyone, don't get me wrong on that please. It's just that I hope that there are more people out there that recognize my problem and are willing to admit that this tweeters they have just spend a thousand dollars on still don't sound like the real thing, it's not a shame, happened to me a lot.
I know what you are talking about, I am in pro sector too. My guess of what you miss is radiation area. You miss body and size of a Sabian or a Ziljan. You need low Fs big area radiated mid-hf.
That is why I suggested a vertical ribbon array or a 2 inch cone tweeters horizontal Bessel. Fullrangers can give gutsy fat treble too. I love fullrangers warts an all.
As for the Yams I still wonder if they can give the 96-98 dB of HF SPL so to follow the PHL 1220 double output.
The 1000M is rated 90dB, their HF pot can give +3. I would guees that the Yams cant be more than 93@2.83V/1m or thereabouts.
I guess they are ok to mate with a single PHL 1220.
That is why I suggested a vertical ribbon array or a 2 inch cone tweeters horizontal Bessel. Fullrangers can give gutsy fat treble too. I love fullrangers warts an all.
As for the Yams I still wonder if they can give the 96-98 dB of HF SPL so to follow the PHL 1220 double output.
The 1000M is rated 90dB, their HF pot can give +3. I would guees that the Yams cant be more than 93@2.83V/1m or thereabouts.
I guess they are ok to mate with a single PHL 1220.
WARNING, I urge you to NOT open your tweeter for any tweak, BERYLIUM IS VERY POISONOUS!!! Some RF transistor also have Berylium inside the package because of the RF shielding properties(or what it was now..), in manufacturers datasheets are also warning texts placed due to this issue. But as long as the package is complete, they are safe.
Cracked packages should be discarded.
In F1 car racing they have used Berylium also for the pistons because it's a strong and light material with good properties, but are now banned.
Cheers Michael
EDIT:
This is probably because they are poisonous, it's not ment the Berylium dome should be touchable!
I think I would like to try this bessel array when I can get my hand on the Tangbands, at least they are cheap enough for another experiment, can always look for something better if the principle of the bessel array works out well.
How would you wire five of those tweeters ? all in parallel seems not such a good idea and series/parallel is a bit difficult with five drivers.
They might work best without any enclosure at all. I have some Bandor 50mm semi fullrange units lying around wich sound best this way, they don't seem to like any enclosure, makes them slow.
How would you wire five of those tweeters ? all in parallel seems not such a good idea and series/parallel is a bit difficult with five drivers.
They might work best without any enclosure at all. I have some Bandor 50mm semi fullrange units lying around wich sound best this way, they don't seem to like any enclosure, makes them slow.
Ultima Thule said:
Some RF transistor also have Berylium inside the package because of the RF shielding properties(or what it was now..), in manufacturers datasheets are also warning texts placed due to this issue. But as long as the package is complete, they are safe.
Cracked packages should be discarded.
In F1 car racing they have used Berylium also for the pistons because it's a strong and light material with good properties, but are now banned.
Cheers Michael
EDIT:
This is probably because they are poisonous, it's not ment the Berylium dome should be touchable!
Actually, my Yamaha NS-670s have metal screens for both the fabric mid & tweet, so I think they were trying to protect the material, fabric or metal, from meddling humans, not humans from the material!
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