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Old 31st August 2005, 09:11 PM   #1
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Default Help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor

Hi,

I want help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor. It's for my friend who just sold Klipsch Reference RB25 bookshelves to get something significantely better. He was annoyed by the sibilance in female voices and harshness that might be caused by the horn loaded tweeter(?). His biggest complain is the midrange, he thinks the RB25 were greatly lacking in that area.

The budget is 600-700$ USD. Since he can get B stock (he doesn't care about the look) Onix Reference 1 Monitor for 600$, he doesn't want to go higher than that. He's looking for the best sound quality possible. He already got an amplifier with 30WPC into 6 ohms, so the budget is only for the speaker drivers, polyfill, crossover parts, ports, binding post and wood.

He never listen to loud music. He listen at most at 95 dB average, 100 dB average maximum. Louder than that and it's pain so he will turn the volume down. He never get past 100 dB. He sit about 5-6 feet from the speakers and don't move much.

So, he was thinking about going two-way, but since he doesn't like loud music, I suggested that he should also consider fullrange with the CSS FR125S. He want quite large bookshelves, the Klipsch RB25 stands can take about 7 inches by 7 inches speakers, so he want something to fill that. He is using a subwoofer, the HSU STF-2.

What's the best choice for sound quality? Two-way or fullrange?Considering the budget, using FR125S would leave alot of spare cash, but would it be up to par with Onix Reference 1 Monitor? Looking at the frequency response curve, there's two dips (1.25 kHz and 10 kHz) and one peak (6.5 kHz), you probably also have a narrow sweet spot to get that flat response to 20 kHz. Then if you go two-way, I'm quite sure we can get a flatter frequency response curve, wider sweet spot and lower distortion but then you get phase/time problems and a crossover. He also doesn't need that wide sweet spot since he doesn't move much.

That's what I was thinking :

Fullrange :
CSS FR125S with the current deal of 150$/pair with grilles and baffles.

Two-way :
Seas 27TBFCG tweeter
CSS WR125S or CSS FR125S or "something else" midrange

So, I want your opinion, advice and help to tell me if the FR125S is up to the task or it would be better to go two-way. If it's better to go two-way, I want your opinion, advice and help to tell me what would be a good "something else" or the CSS FR125S or the CSS WR125S would be up to the task. Remember the target is the Onix Reference 1 Monitor.

Thank you very much in advance!
Tell me if I forgot to tell something you need to know!
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Old 1st September 2005, 03:57 AM   #2
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Why don't you just get the same drivers as the Onix and build from that if it's what your friend really likes, that way your only risk would be the XO design and the component quality.
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Old 1st September 2005, 06:02 AM   #3
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The Seas Trym kit may interest you as it uses the best drivers Seas makes. The parts are ~ $600. I like the idea of a low tweeter crossover that then allows one speaker to carry all the human vocal range. If you use a stand you may want to consider putting the port on the bottom of the cabinet. Substituting the lower cost Seas 27 TDFC fabric dome tweeter is worth exploring.



http://www.seas.no/trym.htm

The Trym is a 2 way, 2 driver loudspeaker kit utilizing the latest driver technology from the SEAS Excel product line. This kit uses a single W22EX001 22cm woofer and a T 25 CF OO2 "MILLENNIUM" tweeter. . It was designed to be relatively easy and economical to build, while still providing the very highest level of acoustical performance. The Trym was designed by Murray Zeligman.
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Old 1st September 2005, 06:42 AM   #4
morbo is offline morbo  Canada
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I think something like one of the Raw MTMs with the WR125 and AC tweeter would do, as would the exodus audio kits with the extremis, the criterion, Jon Marsh's modula designs over at htguide, Curt C's cryolite, and so forth. Lots of choices which should offer equal or better performance, but it unlikely you will find many people who've heard both the onix AND more than one of the above listed speakers.
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Old 1st September 2005, 08:38 PM   #5
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by soongsc
Why don't you just get the same drivers as the Onix and build from that if it's what your friend really likes, that way your only risk would be the XO design and the component quality.
He would like to have something better if possible. I don't even know if he already listened to these speakers. Onix drivers, at least the Vifa tweeter, seem to be really "normal" parts not that expensive. So I guess we could choose better parts.

Quote:
Originally posted by LineSource
I like the idea of a low tweeter crossover that then allows one speaker to carry all the human vocal range. Substituting the lower cost Seas 27 TDFC fabric dome tweeter is worth exploring. This kit uses a single W22EX001 22cm woofer and a T 25 CF OO2 "MILLENNIUM" tweeter.
Thank you very much for this kit suggestion, I'll look into it. I wanted to use the 27 TBFCG tweeter because it's the best affordable tweeter according to Zaph, even slightly better in performance than the Millenium (can't post the model number right now, can't access to Zaph website). I was thinking in using a 5 kHz crossover so the critical range I heard about where there should be no crossover (250-5000) would be covered by the FR125S.

Quote:
Originally posted by LineSource
I think something like one of the Raw MTMs with the WR125 and AC tweeter would do, as would the exodus audio kits with the extremis, the criterion, Jon Marsh's modula designs over at htguide, Curt C's cryolite, and so forth.
I will check into them too, I was thinking in using the Extremis too, but I think I could get better midrange with another driver. In a three-way with the FR125S and 27 TBFCG it would be awesome! Thank you!

Keep the suggestions and ideas coming guys! Thanks again!
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Old 1st September 2005, 09:45 PM   #6
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Hi Simon5

The Trym has a 1.6Khz crossover point which allows integration with the W22EX001 22cm woofer. The W22 is one of the few speakers that has the surface area, and the Xmax, and the low Le motor to sound good from 30-2Khz.

A 5Khz tweeter crossover is more suited to a 3-way TMW since the cone diameter required to reach 5Khz without beaming will not have enough area to pump enough air to bring 30-40hz to life in a room. If you are building a 3-way with a 5Khz Xover, consider the the Seas 27 TDC (no fero fluid) tweeter. ..much greater air and detail.


If you want to save money.. build a well reviewed kit and don't make any mistakes.

If you want to have fun and education... design your own, but beware that the driver cost is only a small portion of the total cost
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Old 2nd September 2005, 12:36 AM   #7
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Hi, as I said, that guy is using a subwoofer, a HSU STF-2. So we don't need 40 Hz much. What do you think in that situation?

Also, I had no comments about using the fullrange FR125S alone.
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Old 2nd September 2005, 01:17 AM   #8
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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The Jordan JX92S also seems to have quite good reputation.
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Old 2nd September 2005, 03:49 AM   #9
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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I agree with you. Do you think it could achieve the performance of the Onix monitor?
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Old 2nd September 2005, 04:41 AM   #10
morbo is offline morbo  Canada
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The Jordan does have a great rep, but AFAIK it is without canadian distributors at the moment, and if it is better than the FR125 (which from what I've heard is highly debateable), it is certainly not 2x better, which is what it costs. I have heard GrahamT's 'ExtremeMT' (details of which are at htguide) and I think it is the best fullrange bookshelf I've ever heard, though I could see it overpowering a small room. It would likely be in your price range, and I think it would definately outperform that Onix, and having heard the Dayton RS drivers, and having total faith in Jon Marsh's XO design skills, I'd say the same for the Modula series with total confidence, the use RS woofers and the Seas tweeter you like.
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