A how to for a PC XO.

[BillH]

Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
I feel almost certain that your computer wouldn't be able to achieve a decent playback on 2 channel.

Probably true, I'm using it for testing right now. I'll move the sound card and software to my main computer later.

Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
I suspect its only the pro and studio level cards that have the necessary compatiblity because the plugins are intended for these cards.

By plugins, do you mean the vst plugins for Console?

I've got Console installed on the main computer and went through the setup for ASIO on the onboard sound card on the Abit NF-7 mb, just to see what I could do with it. I've played around with Console before, but could never figure out where to find input and output plugins. Would you help a newb?

Just for now, I'd like to be able to play a cd and add some effects to the stream.

BillH

[ShinOBIWAN]

To offer a counterpoint to all this talk of this particular PC XO solution I'd like to post this discussion between me and Thylantyr. That way folks can make an opinion based on conflicting viewpoints regarding performance. Its not a question of who is right but rather give others an insight of the issues surround performance compared to other solutions.

This is the best place for this I feel and it saves cr*ping in noobs speaker thread from which this discussion has been taking place before this thread was created.

Here's the original post by Thy:

Originally posted by thylantyr


Good thread you started. I'll be nice and not go there

I just need some clarification on why this $5000 system
is superior.

RyanC said "Oh- if you don't need real time playback you can use FIR filters, you will get a 60-100ms delay- they didn't sound noticably better to me so I stuck with some other ones (and i do need the turn around latency to stay as low as possible) Anyway thanks guys-

Kill your DCX!!! or sell it at least. . .

ShinOBIWAN said "Did you ever hear the setup with DRC? For me that's the biggest improvement, the FIR XO slopes are a
marginal upgrade to the DCX but with the DRC it completely transforms the sounds. More sorted well defined bass, more air, cleaner midrange etc.

/// and ///

My whole point for superior sound on my XO is DRC. You've never even heard a system with DRC.

Its only been possible to a full extent in the last year or so on the home PC. So you can't imagine the improvements it bring.

Turn DRC off and then turn it back on, watch the soundstage grow and become more realistic, ckeaner.

The bass suddenly becomes even more defined and quicker. Details move to the fore that required concentration before.

The whole sound is very effortless and very believable.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Questions

1. Ryan and you think FIR filters are marginal upgrades but
both agree that DRC is the big improvement. If one needs
DRC, then this rig is the best way to get DRC for the money?

2. Hypothetical: What if I was setting up a sound system without
a room, lets say an outdoor venue, open field. A system like
this wouldn't benefit me as much because I wouldn't need DRC
because there is no reflections ? If I don't use DRC, what
other features makes a dramatic impact in sound that can't
be found elsewhere for less money?

3. Which piece of equipment are you using to output SACD or
DVD-A in digital form instead of analog? When you playback
SACD or DVA-A using the digital stream, your rig accepts the
digital in native form and then you do digital signal processing
before the amps? Right now these formats are coming out analog
when you buy the home audio players and HDMI 1.2 is suppose
to allow digital SACD, but I'd imagine those receivers will cost
a bundle of money also.

The part that bugs me is. If there is no music that I like in SACD
or DVD-A, what is the point? You can can't get better performance
out of 16/44khz CD, the source is crippled, but then again, some
people think SACD is only 5% to 10% better in SQ.. how come
that percentage is low ?

[ShinOBIWAN]

My reply to Thy's questions above

First off £5000 isn't just the XO, that's two hi-spec overkill PC's and two pro soundcards with baubles. It plays games seamlessly, its a DVD player, a radio, a CD/SACD/DVD-A player, a music/video jukebox along with wireless control and websurfing from any room in the house.

Buy a load of half decent components that did that without an XO and you'd be looking at sizeable money for a start. Then try to buy something with the same capabilities such as the ability to process 14 channels of filtered audio to a similar standard and with the same features.

It looks like a bargain to me.

1. Ryan and you think FIR filters are marginal upgrades but
both agree that DRC is the big improvement. If one needs
DRC, then this rig is the best way to get DRC for the money?

The FIR filters are a bonus and not the first appeal of this whole thing. They are also very configurable like I've shown in the 'how to' thread. The IIR filters in the very same system are also great also but don't offer quite the same transparency as the FIR on a high resolution speaker that can benefit from that. You've spent $15k on drivers I'm sure that you'd notice the change from such an array of drivers - especially with such high sensitivity. But whether or not that difference actually means enough to you is subjective. The more important thing is that the same difference can be argued infinitely until you've actually heard that difference and made an informed opinion.

Also your not just buying DRC though are you. I think you'd best read the advantages of the system in the thread you linked to and if enough of those sound agreeable then maybe its for you. There's also disadvantages too say you'll need to weigh those up against the advantages. Weigh the advantages up against its nearest competitor the DEQX and see which is the more desirable. On the flip side I know that Mac on these forums sold his DEQX because he didn't like it. So its clearly not for everyone. I'm just helping others out here and not pushing or selling anything.

In no way am I saying "you MUST do the PC thing if you want any hope of enjoying the music or whatever" Which you seem to think I'm trying to sell you. I couldn't care less if you do or you don't give it a try.

Its good that at least two people (Ryan & me) say the same thing. Ryan also must put a lot of faith in the system since he's just splashed out on Pro Tools HD rig costing big money compared to the RME setup.

2. Hypothetical: What if I was setting up a sound system without
a room, lets say an outdoor venue, open field. A system like
this wouldn't benefit me as much because I wouldn't need DRC
because there is no reflections ? If I don't use DRC, what
other features makes a dramatic impact in sound that can't
be found elsewhere for less money?

Wow you live in a field? You're not a pikey are you?

Your buying a lot of precision, flexibility, expandability and convienience.

The scope for greater improvements and extracting the most from drivers using this system is much larger than that of a DCX or even worst passive. You can create very strict tolerences between loudspeakers and this creates quite breathtaking clarity if used to its full potential.

Its hard enough to get consistency between 2 speakers, so for multichannel the power and flexibility is even more important and impressive when its done correctly. Ever heard a living breathing soundstage with 2 channel? Well decent multichannel creates an entire soundfield with you in middle when setup correctly. Its incredibly powerful stuff emotionally and that to me is worth £5000 alone.

The $3000 DEQX will only do 6 analogue outs or stereo 3-way. This does 14 channels right now with the ability to go upto 3 times that amount if you ever found a use for all that. Your paying for that multichannel aspect also in that £5000 as well as what I've laid at the beginning of this thread.

Its only when you compare FIR to IIR on the very same system that you notice the small gain in quality - this is what Ryan was talking about in your quote. Compare the FIR filters or the IIR filters with passive, analogue active or the DCX and the difference is larger although not in the same league as DRC.
Every aspect is appealing to me compared to what has gone before in my system because its entirely higher quality throughout and sure their maybe small improvements on individual specifics but add all those up and its a noticable improvement without the DRC.

I've got around 3 setups I use consistently, 2 with FIR filters and 1 with IIR filters. I switch between them depending on what I'm listening to.

So finally what's your point? I consider DRC as much a part of the package as wheels on a car. And 99% of folks have room issues. You also say the cost is £5000(not $5000 dollars BTW) but its possible for at least half that depending on your requirements and resourcefulness, you know that I've got bits invested in that figure it that most folks would have no use for. So its misleading to say £5000.

3. Which piece of equipment are you using to output SACD or
DVD-A in digital form instead of analog? When you playback
SACD or DVA-A using the digital stream, your rig accepts the
digital in native form and then you do digital signal processing
before the amps? Right now these formats are coming out analog
when you buy the home audio players and HDMI 1.2 is suppose
to allow digital SACD, but I'd imagine those receivers will cost
a bundle of money also.

WinDVD with the audio pack for multichannel DVD-A. And SACD via 6 channel analogue in's and isn't digital. The current SACD spec is useless IMO. DVD-A sounds superior IMO also, or maybe the disc are just better?

The part that bugs me is. If there is no music that I like in SACD
or DVD-A, what is the point? You can can't get better performance
out of 16/44khz CD, the source is crippled, but then again, some
people think SACD is only 5% to 10% better in SQ.. how come
that percentage is low ? [/B]

What about DVD's? You mentioned you had video integration plans into your system earlier in this thread.

CD's aren't going to be here for good and I don't care what you think about multichannel music. With the right disc's its breathtaking in a way that the best 2 channel never quite lives up to. I also think there's more to come from the formats too.

You haven't heard the system running have you? Its a shame you don't live in the UK since you could come and listen to the differences and make a more informed opinion instead of just hypothosising every point in a 'what if' and 'what's passed before' ideaology.

Like I said at the start of the post, you've already made your mind up. Why keep asking me to justify it all to you?

If it was for you, you'd see the highlights and not constantly ask for justification. Its fine to question things but must you go on and on reapeating essentially the same points making both of us go round in circles? Surely you'd either be interested in such a thing or not from all the information laid out in front of you? The only thing to do next is either forget about it or try it, we can argue forever and its doesn't mean a thing until you've heard it and can strenuously either say yes or no.

All this is kinda like arguing "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?"

[Audiophilenoob]

Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


No probs, hope others will see the light of this type of setup since its superior to anything I've heard in my system before.




Like I said back in the hardware bit of this thread. I've only got experience with the RME and with that in mind I can assure folks that what I have is stable, reliable and performs very well. Other cards I have never tried so I'd hate to recommend something and then have someone come back to me and say they spent $xxx amount and it doesn't work!

From a pure SQ perspective, folks in the HTPC forum on AVS have put the RME up against cards like the Delta and Lynx TWO B. From the results it was ranked Lynx top closely followed by the RME and the Delta was a fair way back from the Lynx.
Also the Delta supports 32 outputs but how many analogue outs does it have as standard? What expansion boards are available? How many of those 32 outputs can actually be used for analogue? The RME claims 32 outputs but only 16 of those can be used for analogue with a single card and as standard it comes with 2! If you need more than that with the RME you have to add a second card into the PC and link it to the first - you can add upto 3 x RME HDSP 9632's into one PC for upto 48 analogue outs if the need took you.

All these questions need answering if you choose another card and the answers largely depend upon what you expect from the system. If you want 2 channel 3-way then 6 is enough, if you want 2 channel 4-way then 8 and at the other end of the scale, if you needed enough ouputs for a 3-way 5.1 multichannel system then you'd need 16 outputs along with a dual processor dedicated PC for the sheer huge number crunching task!
Don't forget that the card also MUST have internal routing and multiclient drivers.

The only soundcard related questions I can answer with certainty are those regarding either the RME HDSP 9632 or the HDSP 9652 since I own both of these. Anything else would be a guess and at the prices these cost you wouldn't respect me for guessing!

Hopefully others will add definite working examples here also as I have done and hopefully some cheaper configurations that still allow the same core plugins and software to be used - please folks no talk of foobar or winamp stuff since that's very much restricted in flexibility and performance. What we need is people to test it on other soundcards and then report back here with the results. This will help everyone I feel.

Also Noob, you've probably noticed that the software and plugins alone come to around $2000 or more. Do you have an email address?

yea dude it's feandil00@yahoo.com

software and plugins is somethign I might beable to hack since there's trial versions

eithe way I'm willing to front the money for DRC

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by Audiophilenoob



yea dude it's feandil00@yahoo.com

software and plugins is somethign I might beable to hack since there's trial versions

eithe way I'm willing to front the money for DRC

OK I'll email you with more details.

[Audiophilenoob]

Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN




Like I said back in the hardware bit of this thread. I've only got experience with the RME and with that in mind I can assure folks that what I have is stable, reliable and performs very well. Other cards I have never tried so I'd hate to recommend something and then have someone come back to me and say they spent $xxx amount and it doesn't work!

From a pure SQ perspective, folks in the HTPC forum on AVS have put the RME up against cards like the Delta and Lynx TWO B. From the results it was ranked Lynx top closely followed by the RME and the Delta was a fair way back from the Lynx.
Also the Delta supports 32 outputs but how many analogue outs does it have as standard? What expansion boards are available? How many of those 32 outputs can actually be used for analogue? The RME claims 32 outputs but only 16 of those can be used for analogue with a single card and as standard it comes with 2! If you need more than that with the RME you have to add a second card into the PC and link it to the first - you can add upto 3 x RME HDSP 9632's into one PC for upto 48 analogue outs if the need took you.

All these questions need answering if you choose another card and the answers largely depend upon what you expect from the system. If you want 2 channel 3-way then 6 is enough, if you want 2 channel 4-way then 8 and at the other end of the scale, if you needed enough ouputs for a 3-way 5.1 multichannel system then you'd need 16 outputs along with a dual processor dedicated PC for the sheer huge number crunching task!
Don't forget that the card also MUST have internal routing and multiclient drivers.

The only soundcard related questions I can answer with certainty are those regarding either the RME HDSP 9632 or the HDSP 9652 since I own both of these. Anything else would be a guess and at the prices these cost you wouldn't respect me for guessing!

Hopefully others will add definite working examples here also as I have done and hopefully some cheaper configurations that still allow the same core plugins and software to be used - please folks no talk of foobar or winamp stuff since that's very much restricted in flexibility and performance. What we need is people to test it on other soundcards and then report back here with the results. This will help everyone I feel.

Also Noob, you've probably noticed that the software and plugins alone come to around $2000 or more. Do you have an email address?

the MAudio 1010 isn't a delta... it's in fact quite similar to the RME you're using with 110db SNR TESTED out of the outputs in loopback

I'm very serious about trying this... so email away

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by Audiophilenoob


the MAudio 1010 isn't a delta... it's in fact quite similar to the RME you're using with 110db SNR TESTED out of the outputs in loopback

I'm very serious about trying this... so email away

Sorry I did mean the 1010. I thought it was part of the Delta range though.

Motion mentioned that the status on the internal routing of the 1010 was unknown. Are you sure you want to risk it?

If you need something less costly and that is confirmed to work then why not go for Prodigy 7.1LT? If you like what you hear then move onto the RME or better?

That would be the safest way and I can't imagine a million miles of SQ difference between the RME and the Prodigy TBH. Some of the soundcard driver specific stuff I wouldn't be able to help with though but the core working of the plugins and console are no problem.

[Audiophilenoob]

Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


Sorry I did mean the 1010. I thought it was part of the Delta range though.

Motion mentioned that the status on the internal routing of the 1010 was unknown. Are you sure you want to risk it?

If you need something less costly and that is confirmed to work then why not go for Prodigy 7.1LT? If you like what you hear then move onto the RME or better?

That would be the safest way and I can't imagine a million miles of SQ difference between the RME and the Prodigy TBH. Some of the soundcard driver specific stuff I wouldn't be able to help with though but the core working of the plugins and console are no problem.

if it works with the delta 66 I see no reason why it wouldn't work with the step up???

I'm willing to at least try with the 1010 cause I believe there's a goo d chance since this isn't a driver but rather programs

question... does this xover, DRC always function on the comp??? meaning that no sound can be played back from the comp from any program without it going through this??? like games, DVD's etc etc

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by Audiophilenoob



if it works with the delta 66 I see no reason why it wouldn't work with the step up???

I'm willing to at least try with the 1010 cause I believe there's a goo d chance since this isn't a driver but rather programs

question... does this xover, DRC always function on the comp??? meaning that no sound can be played back from the comp from any program without it going through this??? like games, DVD's etc etc

I'm confused? How did it work on the Delta 66?

I don't know of anyone that's got it working on anything other than a Prodigy or RME. I think you've got confused with my earlier post when I compared the Lynx, RME and Delta. This was just idle chat on AVS forum and was purely a comparison of sound quality and in no way tried to implement any XO in these comparisons.

The last question is yes the XO will always process the signal if you've set the routing of signals up correctly. Don't worry about that for now just concentrate on a decent 2 channel 3-way XO first.

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by mbutzkies
Shin

Did you ever look at LynxTwo? If you did what are your thoughts?

How did you attach your OCX, did you use wordclock, superclock etc?
How would you describe the low jitter improvements audio wise?

Did you ever bypass theatertek and looked at lipsync. i.e. using the TV (or xbox) and taking the audio out from TV(xbox) and putting just the audio through the pc xo? If so how bad was the lipsync issues with the second computer.

Never heard a Lynx TWO only small talk on the net.

Antelope is via wordclock, wish it was superclock though since that 256F with no PLL. Wordclock is 1F with PLL
The Antelope has superclock the RME doesn't.

Without FIR filters this is entirely possible since IIR filters have much less processing requirements and latency is virtually zero. So yes you can by having two setups with IIR on one for such situations and FIR on the other.

If you want FIR and to use external audio/video sources such as an xbox etc. you need a definite way to add delay to video signal and because the xbox is connected directly to the TV you cannot and the XO will be useless or annoying at best.