Help me decide on a configuration

[cytokine]

I built a pair of Dave Tenney's Dayton 8 MTMs that I have enjoyed very much for the better part of this year.

I now have a budget of $5-800 that I could stretch a bit farthur if need be with which to build something much more resolving that will bring me that much closer to sonic nirvana.

My listening room is something on the order of 10' x 20' and whatever I build can stand about two feet from the wall.

I mostly (>90%) listen to acoustic small ensemble jazz with an additional 5% classical and the other 5% distributed evenly between classic rock and world music.

I am nearly decided that the Eros MkII project (speakerbuilder.net) is the project that will satisfy my listening tastes, but I can't put it out of my mind that it might be fun to build a set of bookshelf speakers and a pair of small subs that would be the third part of a three-way sealed design.

One complication is that I am running a Bottlehead Foreplay pre into a pair of monoblock gainclones. Hence, without some tweaking I don't have sub pre-outs.

I could go line level to the sub amp from the gainclones and then pass through to the bookshelf part on top and that shouldn't overload my system (right?).

What do you guys think? Should I just stop analyzing and build the Eros MkII or continue to explore this other possibility?

[leadbelly]

Originally posted by cytokine
One complication is that I am running a Bottlehead Foreplay pre into a pair of monoblock gainclones. Hence, without some tweaking I don't have sub pre-outs.

I would think that with for the input impedances of the gainclones and sub plate amp(s) a simple Y cable will do fine.

[paulhfx]

I think you should consider for the future, as budget allows: Build the bookshelves. Then run the preamp output into a crossover that will then separately feed the speakers and subs. The subs should be then driven by a separate amp, not plate amps.

If you're doing a pair of subs, the crossover can be set higher than typical sub settings and take the low frequency load off the bookshelves, allowing them to play cleaner.

On the cheap side for crossovers, you can use a behringer cx2310. For a little more you can build a crossover kit (ie Marchand). On the expensive end .. never mind, there is no end to how expensive gear can be

Paul

ps In your case, I'd build the subs first, and run them with your existing speakers using the crossover plan outlined above.

[cytokine]

Originally posted by leadbelly


I would think that with for the input impedances of the gainclones and sub plate amp(s) a simple Y cable will do fine.

D'oh! Of course! I hadn't thought of that. I could Y both channels and that would let me do stereo subs if I wanted.

Originally posted by paulhfx
I think you should consider for the future, as budget allows: Build the bookshelves. Then run the preamp output into a crossover that will then separately feed the speakers and subs. The subs should be then driven by a separate amp, not plate amps.

If you're doing a pair of subs, the crossover can be set higher than typical sub settings and take the low frequency load off the bookshelves, allowing them to play cleaner.

On the cheap side for crossovers, you can use a behringer cx2310. For a little more you can build a crossover kit (ie Marchand). On the expensive end .. never mind, there is no end to how expensive gear can be

Paul

ps In your case, I'd build the subs first, and run them with your existing speakers using the crossover plan outlined above.

So you're suggesting a high powered amp or two for each individual sub? I guess I hadn't thought this out that far.

How does one dial the subs in to the bookshelf speakers using a separate amp? Does the behringer crossover take care of that? Plate amps have built-in crossovers and volume knobs which makes them very convenient for what I have in mind. Are they really that awful?

The Dave Tenney Dayton 8 MTMs actually go low enough so that I don't feel like I'm missing much in my two channel rig without a sub.

That's why I feel fairly confident that the Eros would work well for me as they go almost as low (mid 30s vs 33 Hz for the Daytons). I'm really in pursuit of excellent midrange and highs here such as I have heard on a friend's Vienna Acoustics Haydns.

Believe me, I am all about bass. I have an Adire Rava for my home theater rig and I have a pair of Shivas in my car getting 300 W each.

With that in mind the bass for this tentative bookshelf/sub setup would have to be tight and precise, so I'm thinking sealed 10" drivers of some sort.

The other consideration is WAF. I almost can't build the subs first because she will put her foot down. I recently purchased a pair of Athena AS-B1s to go with my other Athena home theater 5.1 setup and she simply will not allow me to go 7.1 in the living room. Hence if I were to build the subs and the bookshelves all at once I would probably be OK. Otherwise, there is nowhere to put another pair of speakers, especially subs.

Now, on to explore the idea a bit. If I go with bookshelves and 10" subs (open to other suggestions though) what drivers for the bookshelves? I'm really sold on what I hear about the Scan-Speak 2905/9500 and the Eros uses those.

I originally got on that tweeter because of the Ariel project that I'm not going to build and I like what those builders have to say about the Vifa mid that those speakers use (P13WH-00-08) as well.

I'm open to suggestions and I've gone on long enough.

Thanks for the help.

[BobEllis]

Have you seen this thread? New Seas tweeters tested You might save yourself a lot of money on the tweeters.

How about an MTM with Dayton RS 6 or 7" woofers and the tweeter you're bound to choose after reading the tweeter testing thread. These will go low enough to cross with either single or dual subs. Or with the money you'll be saving on tweeters, try some magnesium woofers.

I'm surprised that you haven't taken the HT sub and tried it with the music system. Be forewarned - especially as bass freak, once you try a proper sub, you'll never want to be without one.

There is nothing terribly wrong with plate amps, it is just that the mains will need some sort of high pass to blend with the sub. Many plate amps also have boost at inconvenient frequencies that will need to be defeated or modified.

since you're already considering an active XO, why not go full tilt and do all Xo's active? Another case of never going back once you've tried it. You can tweak active XO'z fairly cheaply, especailly when you look at the cost of boutique capacitors and coils.

I hope this is helpful rather than leading to options analysis paralysis.

[cytokine]

Originally posted by BobEllis
Have you seen this thread? New Seas tweeters tested You might save yourself a lot of money on the tweeters.

How about an MTM with Dayton RS 6 or 7" woofers and the tweeter you're bound to choose after reading the tweeter testing thread. These will go low enough to cross with either single or dual subs. Or with the money you'll be saving on tweeters, try some magnesium woofers.

I'm surprised that you haven't taken the HT sub and tried it with the music system. Be forewarned - especially as bass freak, once you try a proper sub, you'll never want to be without one.

There is nothing terribly wrong with plate amps, it is just that the mains will need some sort of high pass to blend with the sub. Many plate amps also have boost at inconvenient frequencies that will need to be defeated or modified.

since you're already considering an active XO, why not go full tilt and do all Xo's active? Another case of never going back once you've tried it. You can tweak active XO'z fairly cheaply, especailly when you look at the cost of boutique capacitors and coils.

I hope this is helpful rather than leading to options analysis paralysis.

Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

I was literally all set to pull the trigger on the parts for the Eros (yea even unto having all the items in my PartsExpress cart...) and now look what you've done.

I'm glad you brought that thread to my attention but at the same time, I wonder about paralysis by analysis. At some point you just have to committ and build. Not yet apparently.

I like the description of the 27TDFC as being "close behind, with an ever-so-slightly more aggressive and bright sound that some prefer and some don't".

I haven't heard any of these tweeters but I do like a slightly brighter top end than most.

Got a proven design with this one and a really nice sounding mid?

[BobEllis]

Here's one: Tony Gee or Zaph's all metal Sea's design?

Some other designs are mentioned in the Tony Gee or Zaph thread.

Happy building!

[cytokine]

Thanks Bob. Neither of those designs uses the 27TDFC. However Zaph uses these in his Vifa XG18 / Seas 27TDFC MTM which looks like just the thing.

I don't really want to build another set of cabinets right now and these will fit into one of the PE prefabs that I've heard are really nice. I want sealed and I want an MTM configuration so these look just about perfect.

Talk me out of it.

[BobEllis]

Originally posted by cytokine
...

Talk me out of it.

Why? I haven't heard it, but Zaph's designs are well thought out and those who build them like them. It comes in within your budget, too.

[cytokine]

I only say that because of my original post that I'm looking to take that next step to sonic nirvana.

I don't want to build something just for the sake of building something and if someone can suggest something better, I'm all for it.

Now for some bass...