Hello all,
yesterday I spent the day in audio heaven... running all over this state auditioning the best of store bought speakers... Paradigm, B&W, Wilson, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Mcintosh.
to do my part as a currently learning audiophile I thought I would give my hopefully unbiased feelings about every one of them... also I took a friend and will give you her impressions...
the songs played were several 3 doors down songs (one of them live) which I used as a reference as I saw them in concert 1 week ago from this audition (good reference no?
) also I used some classical tracks from mozart, etc. I also used some punk rock like Sum 41 etc... listening tests on every speaker was a minimum of 2 songs... and on most I listened to 5+
let's get to it: Please take the time to read it all as I spent 10 hrs of my time gathering this
Paradigm 11 ($1000 a pair) - 10 feet away - powered by Yamaha receiver 120x5
highs were quite extended. I believe these are the best speakers at $1000 out right now. it was missing significant low end material. Standing up I noticed that the midbass (what little there was) was still pronounced but midrange and highs all but disappeared. 4 meters away the highs were better while standing but SPL was dramatically reduced
Paradigm 100 ($2200?? a pair) - 10-20 feet away- powered by mark levinson
the midbass problem with the 11s was fixed. midrange was muddy and harsh at times. Vocals generally were strong but also could overpower midbass. Off-axis reponse was improved but like the 11s distance dramatically reduced output. There was no midbass impact at any signifcant distance over 3 meters away.
Paradigm Signature S8s ($6000+ a pair) - 10-20 feet away
vocals were strong and pronounced and hardly ever over powered the strong midbass. standing up hardly did anything to SQ even within 10 feet. midbass was strong. There was a thump in my chest with some songs.
Martin Logan Ascent i ($4600 a pair) - 10 feet away in a very nice sound room (only room in all tests I was in that was DESIGNED well)
there certainly was a distinct lack of midbass output, even with that 10/12 in the bottom. the ESLs dipole effect was quite breath taking in this room even though they were only 1.5 feet from the back wall. sound did not change at all while standing and walking around the room. Massive sweet spot. Highs could have been improved significantly with a dual ESL design like the E2 statement.
B&W 803 ($6000+ a pair) - 10-20 feet away- heard this at 2 different shops.
guitar music seemed very transparent. Standing up noticeably changes sound to the detriment of the speakers. deep midbass. the tweets were unimaginably harsh. I absolutely hated them, as did my friend. She in fact hated them so much that they gave her a headache and she had to leave. The tweeter was AWFUL.
Wilson Watt Puppy 7- ($24,000 a pair) - 10 feet away- chase amplification
Words can not describe this speaker. It amazed me. there was a breath taking "innocence" to the music I listened to. the midrange and tweeter is what I loved most about these. The guitar was incredible. you could hear as the soloist would pluck his string and hear the reverberations as they came off. I heard more "music" from these then I realized was ever recorded in those songs. They were incredibly dynamic
Wilson Sophia ($11,000 a pair) - 10 feet away- simple amplifier configuration
it seemed obvious to me what wilson did with the puppy. They simply stuck the puppy part on the sophia and just put large midbasses in the watt puppy 7 to make customers "value" that $13,000 price difference. Midrange was the same as the Watt 7 as were the highs. Midbass was lacking, however, it was simply because wilson used smaller midbasses (did this on purpose of course to sell the Watts)
B&W 802 - ($12,000 a pair) - Chase amplification
problem with the very very harsh tweets was fixed with these. they however still lacked midbass when compared to the wilson's. it sounded good. But not anywhere near any of the speakers in it's price range. no where near as dynamic as the wilson. Midrange is too subdued
B&W 800- ($16,000+ ???) - again the same Chase amps
better than the 802 significantly. all the components finally seemed to fit together. However switching between these and the Sophia's made me and her instantly realize that the midrange and highs were no where near as dynamic as the wilson's. midbass was strong, but the watts ate them alive.
Magnepan 20.1 ($19,000++++++????) - mark levinson powered
for have such great praises I was very disappointed. there was quite a lot of bass output, however their low efficency seemed to "mask" the music. there seemed to be a fog throughout all the music I listened to. I came to the conclusion that these speakers simply seemed to "reproduce" music but had no uniqueness or personality. they seemed to be saying, "look a me I play music well", but not a thing stood out to me.
Martin logan summit ($10,000+ a pair)
beautiful sounding. highs were not as extended as the watts, but it was a single panel ESL so I took that into account. My friend liked this one the best. She liked that the highs were pretty much non-existant. it was undoubtably a great speaker. The midbass was loud and the midrange was room filling. these pretty much killed the Sophias, but didn't quite have the dynamic nature of the Watts. it made me wonder what the E2 statements sound like.
Mcintosh XRT29 (no midbass model) ($18,000+?? a pair)
these are the ones I listened to for the least amount of time. Not because I couldn't listen longer, but because they absolutely sucked. I was so disappointed. there was little to no impact in the midbass. They were soooo tweeter heavy that I honestly couldn't take it for long. they were the loudest by a long shot, but sounded the worst. they were so "in your face" that they sounded like cow dung.
Well thanks for reading... hope this helps someone, somewhere. remember these are just MY OPINIONS and my friend's. I just wann a present my views on these speakers.
favorties for my friend and I:
Me: Wilson watt Puppys
Her: Martin Logan Summits
yesterday I spent the day in audio heaven... running all over this state auditioning the best of store bought speakers... Paradigm, B&W, Wilson, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Mcintosh.
to do my part as a currently learning audiophile I thought I would give my hopefully unbiased feelings about every one of them... also I took a friend and will give you her impressions...
the songs played were several 3 doors down songs (one of them live) which I used as a reference as I saw them in concert 1 week ago from this audition (good reference no?
) also I used some classical tracks from mozart, etc. I also used some punk rock like Sum 41 etc... listening tests on every speaker was a minimum of 2 songs... and on most I listened to 5+let's get to it:
Please take the time to read it all as I spent 10 hrs of my time gathering this Paradigm 11 ($1000 a pair) - 10 feet away - powered by Yamaha receiver 120x5
highs were quite extended. I believe these are the best speakers at $1000 out right now. it was missing significant low end material. Standing up I noticed that the midbass (what little there was) was still pronounced but midrange and highs all but disappeared. 4 meters away the highs were better while standing but SPL was dramatically reduced
Paradigm 100 ($2200?? a pair) - 10-20 feet away- powered by mark levinson
the midbass problem with the 11s was fixed. midrange was muddy and harsh at times. Vocals generally were strong but also could overpower midbass. Off-axis reponse was improved but like the 11s distance dramatically reduced output. There was no midbass impact at any signifcant distance over 3 meters away.
Paradigm Signature S8s ($6000+ a pair) - 10-20 feet away
vocals were strong and pronounced and hardly ever over powered the strong midbass. standing up hardly did anything to SQ even within 10 feet. midbass was strong. There was a thump in my chest with some songs.
Martin Logan Ascent i ($4600 a pair) - 10 feet away in a very nice sound room (only room in all tests I was in that was DESIGNED well)
there certainly was a distinct lack of midbass output, even with that 10/12 in the bottom. the ESLs dipole effect was quite breath taking in this room even though they were only 1.5 feet from the back wall. sound did not change at all while standing and walking around the room. Massive sweet spot. Highs could have been improved significantly with a dual ESL design like the E2 statement.
B&W 803 ($6000+ a pair) - 10-20 feet away- heard this at 2 different shops.
guitar music seemed very transparent. Standing up noticeably changes sound to the detriment of the speakers. deep midbass. the tweets were unimaginably harsh. I absolutely hated them, as did my friend. She in fact hated them so much that they gave her a headache and she had to leave. The tweeter was AWFUL.
Wilson Watt Puppy 7- ($24,000 a pair) - 10 feet away- chase amplification
Words can not describe this speaker. It amazed me. there was a breath taking "innocence" to the music I listened to. the midrange and tweeter is what I loved most about these. The guitar was incredible. you could hear as the soloist would pluck his string and hear the reverberations as they came off. I heard more "music" from these then I realized was ever recorded in those songs. They were incredibly dynamic
Wilson Sophia ($11,000 a pair) - 10 feet away- simple amplifier configuration
it seemed obvious to me what wilson did with the puppy. They simply stuck the puppy part on the sophia and just put large midbasses in the watt puppy 7 to make customers "value" that $13,000 price difference. Midrange was the same as the Watt 7 as were the highs. Midbass was lacking, however, it was simply because wilson used smaller midbasses (did this on purpose of course to sell the Watts)
B&W 802 - ($12,000 a pair) - Chase amplification
problem with the very very harsh tweets was fixed with these. they however still lacked midbass when compared to the wilson's. it sounded good. But not anywhere near any of the speakers in it's price range. no where near as dynamic as the wilson. Midrange is too subdued
B&W 800- ($16,000+ ???) - again the same Chase amps
better than the 802 significantly. all the components finally seemed to fit together. However switching between these and the Sophia's made me and her instantly realize that the midrange and highs were no where near as dynamic as the wilson's. midbass was strong, but the watts ate them alive.
Magnepan 20.1 ($19,000++++++????) - mark levinson powered
for have such great praises I was very disappointed. there was quite a lot of bass output, however their low efficency seemed to "mask" the music. there seemed to be a fog throughout all the music I listened to. I came to the conclusion that these speakers simply seemed to "reproduce" music but had no uniqueness or personality. they seemed to be saying, "look a me I play music well", but not a thing stood out to me.
Martin logan summit ($10,000+ a pair)
beautiful sounding. highs were not as extended as the watts, but it was a single panel ESL so I took that into account. My friend liked this one the best. She liked that the highs were pretty much non-existant. it was undoubtably a great speaker. The midbass was loud and the midrange was room filling. these pretty much killed the Sophias, but didn't quite have the dynamic nature of the Watts. it made me wonder what the E2 statements sound like.
Mcintosh XRT29 (no midbass model) ($18,000+?? a pair)
these are the ones I listened to for the least amount of time. Not because I couldn't listen longer, but because they absolutely sucked. I was so disappointed. there was little to no impact in the midbass. They were soooo tweeter heavy that I honestly couldn't take it for long. they were the loudest by a long shot, but sounded the worst. they were so "in your face" that they sounded like cow dung.
Well thanks for reading... hope this helps someone, somewhere. remember these are just MY OPINIONS and my friend's. I just wann a present my views on these speakers.
favorties for my friend and I:
Me: Wilson watt Puppys
Her: Martin Logan Summits
chris ma said:
the Sophia, Watt puppy, ML summit, Magnepan, and B&W 800 all shared the same preamps and CD player
BTW the friend I brought along is not an audiophile by any means... but she has good ears...
to name to top 5 in IMO in order:
1. Watt Puppy 7
2. ML summitt
3. Paradigm S8
4. Wilson Sophia
5. ML Ascent
It was a good read.
I checked out those WattPuppies on the web and they look nice.
The reason was earlier on this site someone was trying to clone them as a DIY project.
I'm not really that interested in 3-ways but I do try and keep up with the news. I personally like line arrays & 2-ways with subs.
I have checked out high priced speakers at boutique shops and found them to be way overpriced. Good thing I can build my own!!!!
I checked out those WattPuppies on the web and they look nice.
The reason was earlier on this site someone was trying to clone them as a DIY project.
I'm not really that interested in 3-ways but I do try and keep up with the news. I personally like line arrays & 2-ways with subs.
I have checked out high priced speakers at boutique shops and found them to be way overpriced. Good thing I can build my own!!!!
Dear All,
One of the joys of this hobby is the subjectivity of it all.
What floats your boat is an anchor to others.
I personally love Magneplanars and Martin Logans.
I do not like Wilson Speakers except for the WITT which was discontinued so what do i know.
B&W leave me cold and yes the tweeters can be fierce with the wrong amps.
My favourite speakers of all time are :
QUAD ESL 57 i had 2 pairs over the years and loved them.
A friend had a stacked pair which were truly WIFE haters but sounded amazing.
Orthophase i have 2 pairs and they are fascinating as well as having that electrostatic sound quality but also having power and dynamics.
I also love my large corner horns, astonishing what a 1940's design (using modern drive units) can achieve.
I also build my own speakers for fun and have 2 transmission lines, 2 sealed boxes one of less than 2 litres the other larger over 13 litres. I have 2 vented enclosures one of 60 litres the other just over 100 litres. One of these the mid is open baffled.
I have also built open baffled speakers .
Basically i love speakers.
Other speakers that would not live in my lounge include Linn, NAIM, and most of the major players.
I like the more imaginative/weird designs.
So keep listening and you will learn to listen for what you enjoy in a loudspeaker, and hopefully purchase wisely.
I have a pair of speakers that were built in 1959 which i still occassionally use Ge'Go Orthophase OR3 W4.
Wonderful beasts
regards David
One of the joys of this hobby is the subjectivity of it all.
What floats your boat is an anchor to others.
I personally love Magneplanars and Martin Logans.
I do not like Wilson Speakers except for the WITT which was discontinued so what do i know.
B&W leave me cold and yes the tweeters can be fierce with the wrong amps.
My favourite speakers of all time are :
QUAD ESL 57 i had 2 pairs over the years and loved them.
A friend had a stacked pair which were truly WIFE haters but sounded amazing.
Orthophase i have 2 pairs and they are fascinating as well as having that electrostatic sound quality but also having power and dynamics.
I also love my large corner horns, astonishing what a 1940's design (using modern drive units) can achieve.
I also build my own speakers for fun and have 2 transmission lines, 2 sealed boxes one of less than 2 litres the other larger over 13 litres. I have 2 vented enclosures one of 60 litres the other just over 100 litres. One of these the mid is open baffled.
I have also built open baffled speakers .
Basically i love speakers.
Other speakers that would not live in my lounge include Linn, NAIM, and most of the major players.
I like the more imaginative/weird designs.
So keep listening and you will learn to listen for what you enjoy in a loudspeaker, and hopefully purchase wisely.
I have a pair of speakers that were built in 1959 which i still occassionally use Ge'Go Orthophase OR3 W4.
Wonderful beasts
regards David
RJ said:
so true... buidling is obviously what I will do...
the watt puppys can be cloned for $900 in parts and then wood and time...
not much considering how amazing they sounded....
I more undertook this day out to get a basis for my personal master project over the summer... it was quite helpful as I was able to hear the advantages and disadvantages to every design
I like arrays also... very good stuff... I was just so agast at those Mcintosh ones... I cannot emphasis enough that they were sinfully bad
DAVOhorn said:Dear All,
One of the joys of this hobby is the subjectivity of it all.
What floats your boat is an anchor to others.
I personally love Magneplanars and Martin Logans.
I do not like Wilson Speakers except for the WITT which was discontinued so what do i know.
B&W leave me cold and yes the tweeters can be fierce with the wrong amps.
My favourite speakers of all time are :
QUAD ESL 57 i had 2 pairs over the years and loved them.
A friend had a stacked pair which were truly WIFE haters but sounded amazing.
Orthophase i have 2 pairs and they are fascinating as well as having that electrostatic sound quality but also having power and dynamics.
I also love my large corner horns, astonishing what a 1940's design (using modern drive units) can achieve.
I also build my own speakers for fun and have 2 transmission lines, 2 sealed boxes one of less than 2 litres the other larger over 13 litres. I have 2 vented enclosures one of 60 litres the other just over 100 litres. One of these the mid is open baffled.
I have also built open baffled speakers .
Basically i love speakers.
Other speakers that would not live in my lounge include Linn, NAIM, and most of the major players.
I like the more imaginative/weird designs.
So keep listening and you will learn to listen for what you enjoy in a loudspeaker, and hopefully purchase wisely.
I have a pair of speakers that were built in 1959 which i still occassionally use Ge'Go Orthophase OR3 W4.
Wonderful beasts
regards David
I personally loved ESLs... those summitts rocked....I'm very anxious for my appointment in South Carolina to hear the E2 statement...
I think that ESLs can destroy those puppys.... just not single panel ones that don't play very high...
still what do I know... my friend loved those summit's
so what if you dont have the Phenolic resin.... Just beacuse it's the most acoustically inert material available doesnt mean you cant construct an enclosure just as acoustically inert as theirs using other materials and DIFFERENT construction methods.
Using the right drivers and crossovers IS very important however... Copying a crossover isnt very hard though, all you have to do is measure the component values and use the same.
Wilson does claim rediculis things though like that they've done hours of listening tests on every component of their speakers such as the connectors. If they think they can tell the difference between connector A and connector B and they're both gold plated 10gauge or larger connectors, well they're on LSD or something!
sounded like there were some terrible setups.
i have very sensitive hearing for high frequencies (many speakers give me headaches) and they 803's are far from that. they must have been placed in a terrible room. you went on to say that the 802's sounded much better for treble. they have an identical tweeter in an identical configuration really. they dont sound different. i have both pairs sitting next to me (at work).
and as far as the magnepans sounding bloated in the bass or whatever, thats just poor placement as well. the bass is lean if anything and takes nothing away from the music.
it just reminds me of how important the room and its acoustics are. in addition, related equipment and placement mean a TON too.
also, b&W 800's sound terrible with classe gear IMO. we carry both here and i refuse to demo the 800 series with classe because it sounds lifeless.
interesting stuff though. im surprised you liked the logans. i have yet to hear them setup well and sound worth their price.
i have very sensitive hearing for high frequencies (many speakers give me headaches) and they 803's are far from that. they must have been placed in a terrible room. you went on to say that the 802's sounded much better for treble. they have an identical tweeter in an identical configuration really. they dont sound different. i have both pairs sitting next to me (at work).
and as far as the magnepans sounding bloated in the bass or whatever, thats just poor placement as well. the bass is lean if anything and takes nothing away from the music.
it just reminds me of how important the room and its acoustics are. in addition, related equipment and placement mean a TON too.
also, b&W 800's sound terrible with classe gear IMO. we carry both here and i refuse to demo the 800 series with classe because it sounds lifeless.
interesting stuff though. im surprised you liked the logans. i have yet to hear them setup well and sound worth their price.
I built a pair of quazi Wilson Puppy clones and they are awesome. But mine are modified in several ways.
You should be aware that to really clone the Watt puppys will cost you a lot of money as the materials they are made out of will drive the cabinet materials way past the drivers costs.
Wilson claims the materials are propriatery but I have heard different. THey use versions of mineral filled acrylics like Corian and phonolic composite panels which are out of the world expensive.
But you could build an even better cabinet for a reasonable cost but a lot of labor by using the Rockport method. You use fiberglass and epoxy resin to make a inner and outer skin over a mold of say foam. Then seperate them and clean out the foam. THen pour sand filled general purpose expoxy resin into the cavity.
Hezz
You should be aware that to really clone the Watt puppys will cost you a lot of money as the materials they are made out of will drive the cabinet materials way past the drivers costs.
Wilson claims the materials are propriatery but I have heard different. THey use versions of mineral filled acrylics like Corian and phonolic composite panels which are out of the world expensive.
But you could build an even better cabinet for a reasonable cost but a lot of labor by using the Rockport method. You use fiberglass and epoxy resin to make a inner and outer skin over a mold of say foam. Then seperate them and clean out the foam. THen pour sand filled general purpose expoxy resin into the cavity.
Hezz
Hezz said:
As a previous poster said, enclosures can be made inert with "off-the-shelf" materials/construction methods, etc. I'm more concerned with what drivers Wilson uses, and did you use the same ones in your clones? And what other mods did you make? How did you design your crossovers? Is there a way of finding out what Wilson did with theirs, etc? Can you just "reverse engineer" the speaker to be cloned? And do you have any pics of yours? Would love to see what you did!
Thanks.
i started a thread a few years back that has some information about watt puppy clones. they are standard off the shelf drivers supposedly. the cabinet is the big cost, but a good MDF cabinet will come very close at a fraction of the cost.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9029&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9029&highlight=
Audio...noob: as inferred above, maybe some of the differences you were hearing were the amps. Since you are sceptical of amp differences, I think it would be very interesting to go back to one of the stores with one of those ultra high power PA amps you have mentioned and see if you hear a difference when it is in the setup . I'm not saying you would prefer it or not but it would be interesting to study the differences. Also, very good speakers will give you more insight into a particular amps sound.
It was fun to read, reminds me of expeditions I have done.
It is also a good documentation that different places have better or worse rooms- sometimes in the same building!
cowanrg said:
Variac said:
I heard the 800, 802 and Wilson watts on the same $20,000+ Chase setup...
I heard the 803's a two locations... they sounded awful in both... the 802s high frequencies weren't as harsh and it progessively got better with the 800s... in the one 803 room I first heard they also had paradigm S8s next to them... I heard both in the same room listening to the same music... the S8's IMHO ate them for breakfast and my friend agrees... also same amps etc
that tweeter IMO is a sin... that diamond plating makes it harsher than any metal dome I've ever heard... even in the 800s...
even though they use the same in the 803 as in the 802... the midrange is different (in that teardrop enclosure) and I'm sure the xovers are adjusted accordingly...
either way I'm going active with whatever design I wanna try... so passive design doesn't matter... no passive in the world has the changablity and easy SQ as active
actually just so you know the 802s, 800s and wattpuppys were in the SAME room... the 802s were given the lack luster wall... the 800s and Wilson's shared identical long walls...
audiophilenoob,
the tweeter is not a diamond coating, its solid diamond. in addition, i have heard both (i sell them for a living, so i dont demo them, i pretty much live with them) and the new diamond is MUCH softer than the older metal tweeters.
the new diamond tweeter has been regarded in a lot of reviews as one of the finest made. i had two customers that had current 802's and when the new ones came out, they bought them on the spot because of the new tweeter. it is noticably better IMO.
dont get me wrong, im not a fan of the 800 series, but they are much better than you describe. it was just a terrible setup. even in the same room with the same gear they can sound better or worse than others. they are traditionally a bright speaker, so with bright sounding gear they can be a bad speaker. but with the right gear i have heard them sound fantastic too.
the tweeter is not a diamond coating, its solid diamond. in addition, i have heard both (i sell them for a living, so i dont demo them, i pretty much live with them) and the new diamond is MUCH softer than the older metal tweeters.
the new diamond tweeter has been regarded in a lot of reviews as one of the finest made. i had two customers that had current 802's and when the new ones came out, they bought them on the spot because of the new tweeter. it is noticably better IMO.
dont get me wrong, im not a fan of the 800 series, but they are much better than you describe. it was just a terrible setup. even in the same room with the same gear they can sound better or worse than others. they are traditionally a bright speaker, so with bright sounding gear they can be a bad speaker. but with the right gear i have heard them sound fantastic too.
DAVOhorn said:
My experience is similar. I visited a high end shop and listened to Wilson Grand SLAMM - or some other gigantic beasts, connected to a pair of giant Krells with fire hose cables, Garden hose interconnects to a Pre that I cannot remember and a Wadia CD player. All told the system was worth as much as the average American house, in a room that looked like it should sound good. they didn't sound bad, but they didn't do anything for me either.
Down the hall was a pair of Dynaudio somethings worth around $2500. WOW! They didn't have the bass extension of the Wilsons but they made the music come alive.
I heard a set of big Dunlavys at another shop. Know Nothing salesman said they need a lot of current,so he chose to demo them with a VTL output transformerless amp. Sounded like mud. Over to their "theater room" to listen to the B&Ws. the room was heavily treated on all walls. Boy this will be dead. I guess KN must have dialed in a bunch of EQ to compensate. It sounded like at least 3 tweeters were blown.
A couple other shops I visited were also disappointing. Being told that vented cabinets roll off slower so the bass is tighter, Maggies against the wall, salesmen whose sole measure of sound "quality" was loudness. At one store they would not demo the B&W 802s because "the store next door will complain about the bass shaking them." A frustrating experience.
A college roomie had a pair of Altec A7s in our living room. All 10'x13' of it. They sounded much better when he rolled them into the hall in the dorm to mark the end of quiet hours during finals.
Still, as DAVOhorn said, I love speakers, and always seem to have at least three projects in the works. I just won't pay "high end" prices.
Fun thread, always interesting to hear other people talk about high-end audio demos and set ups. I was hooked for about a year and would hit every hifi salon I could with each business trip to Dallas, Philly, LA, Boston, etc... On many of these I brought my wife who has a very good sense of music and keeps me grounded and focused on the music and the not looks, name, price, and marketing fluff that seems to define much of this space.
If you like bar hopping through audio stores, do yourself a favor and find a good Lynn dealer and hear their top of the line active system. I say this not because it is the best, though I would not argue with anyone who felt that way, but because of all my audio experiences it was one of the most distinctive and memorable. One of the very few vendors I have not experienced is Naim, and I am told they have a similar manner of sounding distinctly different compared to the general bunch of competitors out there, so I would love to hear them some day as well.
Never liked Martin-Logan all that much (have heard some really really good Magnepan demos, but you always get the idea that the dealer really had to know his stuff and put in a lot of time tweaking the whole audio chain to bring out a good full range experience from these things), though occasionally you find a dealer that represents them well but in my experience that is on a very rare occasion. What I really miss the most is the old Snell designs (I think the Type A deserved more respect than it got, and it got a lot, and the fat and boxy Type B was their last great design IMHO) and the last few years of Apogee, those were also some very memorable hifi demos...
But now I have the DIY bug, and thank god, because the days of expensive cars and electronics are over for me, I want to stop getting obsessed with the technology and just enjoy the possibilities of music on a budget with determined design, crazy home brewed construction techniques, and great ideas from the many fine folks on this board. DIY!
If you like bar hopping through audio stores, do yourself a favor and find a good Lynn dealer and hear their top of the line active system. I say this not because it is the best, though I would not argue with anyone who felt that way, but because of all my audio experiences it was one of the most distinctive and memorable. One of the very few vendors I have not experienced is Naim, and I am told they have a similar manner of sounding distinctly different compared to the general bunch of competitors out there, so I would love to hear them some day as well.
Never liked Martin-Logan all that much (have heard some really really good Magnepan demos, but you always get the idea that the dealer really had to know his stuff and put in a lot of time tweaking the whole audio chain to bring out a good full range experience from these things), though occasionally you find a dealer that represents them well but in my experience that is on a very rare occasion. What I really miss the most is the old Snell designs (I think the Type A deserved more respect than it got, and it got a lot, and the fat and boxy Type B was their last great design IMHO) and the last few years of Apogee, those were also some very memorable hifi demos...
But now I have the DIY bug, and thank god, because the days of expensive cars and electronics are over for me, I want to stop getting obsessed with the technology and just enjoy the possibilities of music on a budget with determined design, crazy home brewed construction techniques, and great ideas from the many fine folks on this board. DIY!
Greggo said:
the shop with the wilson's had lynn's... i just only had an hour til they closed so I had to rush
that one shop had everything... the other shops were pointless in retrospect as this shop caried, JM labs, Lynn, Wilson, Aerial, B&W, Mcintosh, Paradigm, Magenpan, Martin Logan, and some others
I know that to every person speakers will sound completely different... but every setup (4 different rooms) the B&W's didn't ever excel... which scared me as a buyer as I will not have a audio engineered room for at least 7 years... The wilson's in 3 different rooms (Sophia and then 2 watt puppys) always seemed to be on top of things
the room I listened to the ML summits in was awful though... very long and narrow with a window and door behind (DIPOLE!!!) the speakers... I think they could have a lot more to "say" then I got to hear
there were speakers that always seemed to be on top even when switching amplification... I heard the Sophia's on a Levinson, then the puppys on that Chase and some other stupidly expensive amp... it never really changed much... in fact these were in different rooms even... the sound was SLIGHTLY different given the rooms... and I could hear no change when he switched to that, in his words, cheaper amplifier setup that was stacked next to the chase
I don't wanna down a speaker a person loves... SQ is whatever makes that song you love engulf you
... but there certainly was something seriously wrong with those 4 rooms that made those B&W's sound that way... the sad part is they never improved or got worse ... to mine and my friend's ears... even when we changed rooms...She hated those B&W's... I thought they were alright... but in that one room (probably 25x15 feet with the speakers on the 25') those S8's ate them up...
but.... it's probably just me
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