BassAwdyO said:
Careful of judging other people's capacities or abilities by your own.
Nasa aren't the smartest clowns in the circus.Yes, I've been on LSD many times, and Yes I can hear the difference between A and B if they are Gold plated 10 gauge or larger connectors. So what. Big deal. Can hear the difference between rhodium, gold, nickel, brass, copper, tel. copper, mono crystal copper, silver, etc.
A SMALL difference, yes. To state that in a A-B? My choice, my place, my system, my house, my day of choice, my music, etc. Yes, very repeatable. To tell the differnce between large numbers of them, consecutively, and accurately? No, I don't think anyone can.
Where a difference can be noticed between any given two? That can be easily done.
sdclc126,
I guess I could post some pictures of them of the WATT/Puppy clone forum. I call mine quazi because they are not exact clones.
I still have not painted them and they are in the raw MDF but they sound so good I haven't bothered to finish the outsides yet.
Mine follow the WATT/Puppy configuration in this way. Seperate cabinets with similar size and geometry. Three way 12 db crossover. I used different drivers but I'm convinced that the exact drivers don't matter. THe Wilsons use modified Focal, SCan Speak and Dynaudio drivers.
Because I was on a sub 1000 USD budget I used the following drivers in the following ways.
I hate digital noise and transients on poor recordings so I opted for a Vifa silk dome tweeter with the double chamber for lower Fz. The midrange is the most important to me and though 4 -5 inch speakers have better dispursion in the upper midrange I went with an Audax carbon fiber cast frame 6.5 inch driver. I did this because 6-7 inch speakers seem tohave the most natural sounding midrange for some reason.
I love the sound of carbon fiber in the midrange better than any other material because it is so smooth sounding. And for the money these drivers hgave awesome timbre.
I only used one Vifa 9 inch bass driver because I needed to reduce expense and the room was small. I sacrifices some bass slam but got better transients by having near critical damping.
Instead of vented cabinets mine are aperiodic both top and bottom.
Having plenty of room for the midrange driver to breath is important for good timbre. The pyramidal shape also is the best for redusing internal standing waves inside the cabinet.
The crossover is housed inside it's own subenclosure in the bass module and is point to point wired with large spacing between the inductors.
In fact had I to do it again this is how I would to it. Make the cabinets as deep as you can and leave about a two inch recess in the near entire rear bass cabinet. Then build the crossover with as wide a spacings as possible between inductors and pot the whole thing in sand filled epoxy with the wires as umbilicals coming out at the proper locations. This kills most vibrations in the crossover.
Then mount the crossover in the rear cabinet recess.
If you wanted you could have the speaker cables hard wired into the crossover to eliminate one set of binding posts.
The cabinet is braced well beyond normal cabinet bracing and all walls are two layers of .75 inch MDF.
It is my believe that the most significant reason way the watts are so good is because the midrange cabinet is decoupled from the main cabinet. Also the design has smoother baffle step response due to tapered sides and narrow top.
Mine weigh about 150 pounds each. One thing that I think is important and I followed audio psychics design philosophy on this. The midrange driver needs to cover all fundamental frequencies. Often the lower frequency crossover is right in the middle of of the vocal range at around 300 Hz. This is very bad and may be pulled off with 6db cross overs but not with anything else. Treat the woofer midrnage crossover point as if it is a subwoofer. So try and get the lower point at least down to 100 Hz. This relieves the midrange driver enough of bass so that it helps clear up the midrange but doesn't mess up the vocal range. This is one reason I am sure many people prefer small two way with sub. Because too many speakers put lower crossover in exactly the worst place possible.
Hezz
I guess I could post some pictures of them of the WATT/Puppy clone forum. I call mine quazi because they are not exact clones.
I still have not painted them and they are in the raw MDF but they sound so good I haven't bothered to finish the outsides yet.
Mine follow the WATT/Puppy configuration in this way. Seperate cabinets with similar size and geometry. Three way 12 db crossover. I used different drivers but I'm convinced that the exact drivers don't matter. THe Wilsons use modified Focal, SCan Speak and Dynaudio drivers.
Because I was on a sub 1000 USD budget I used the following drivers in the following ways.
I hate digital noise and transients on poor recordings so I opted for a Vifa silk dome tweeter with the double chamber for lower Fz. The midrange is the most important to me and though 4 -5 inch speakers have better dispursion in the upper midrange I went with an Audax carbon fiber cast frame 6.5 inch driver. I did this because 6-7 inch speakers seem tohave the most natural sounding midrange for some reason.
I love the sound of carbon fiber in the midrange better than any other material because it is so smooth sounding. And for the money these drivers hgave awesome timbre.
I only used one Vifa 9 inch bass driver because I needed to reduce expense and the room was small. I sacrifices some bass slam but got better transients by having near critical damping.
Instead of vented cabinets mine are aperiodic both top and bottom.
Having plenty of room for the midrange driver to breath is important for good timbre. The pyramidal shape also is the best for redusing internal standing waves inside the cabinet.
The crossover is housed inside it's own subenclosure in the bass module and is point to point wired with large spacing between the inductors.
In fact had I to do it again this is how I would to it. Make the cabinets as deep as you can and leave about a two inch recess in the near entire rear bass cabinet. Then build the crossover with as wide a spacings as possible between inductors and pot the whole thing in sand filled epoxy with the wires as umbilicals coming out at the proper locations. This kills most vibrations in the crossover.
Then mount the crossover in the rear cabinet recess.
If you wanted you could have the speaker cables hard wired into the crossover to eliminate one set of binding posts.
The cabinet is braced well beyond normal cabinet bracing and all walls are two layers of .75 inch MDF.
It is my believe that the most significant reason way the watts are so good is because the midrange cabinet is decoupled from the main cabinet. Also the design has smoother baffle step response due to tapered sides and narrow top.
Mine weigh about 150 pounds each. One thing that I think is important and I followed audio psychics design philosophy on this. The midrange driver needs to cover all fundamental frequencies. Often the lower frequency crossover is right in the middle of of the vocal range at around 300 Hz. This is very bad and may be pulled off with 6db cross overs but not with anything else. Treat the woofer midrnage crossover point as if it is a subwoofer. So try and get the lower point at least down to 100 Hz. This relieves the midrange driver enough of bass so that it helps clear up the midrange but doesn't mess up the vocal range. This is one reason I am sure many people prefer small two way with sub. Because too many speakers put lower crossover in exactly the worst place possible.
Hezz
KBK said:
Careful of judging other people's capacities or abilities by your own.
Yes, I've been on LSD many times, and Yes I can hear the difference between A and B if they are Gold plated 10 gauge or larger connectors. So what. Big deal. Can hear the difference between rhodium, gold, nickel, brass, copper, tel. copper, mono crystal copper, silver, etc.
A SMALL difference, yes. To state that in a A-B? My choice, my place, my system, my house, my day of choice, my music, etc. Yes, very repeatable. To tell the differnce between large numbers of them, consecutively, and accurately? No, I don't think anyone can.
Where a difference can be noticed between any given two? That can be easily done.
you sound like the salesman at the wilson place who tried to tell me that those $31,000 speaker wires made a difference
Hezz,
Thanks for all the details of your WATT/Puppy clones - some very useful info there. Very surprised about the use of different drivers than Wilson's, but learning is what this forum is all about.
I especially abide by the "wide-range midrange" philosophy. Sometimes I see the difference between 3-way and 2-way + sub systems as one of semantics only - they're really both 3-ways - but I like the idea of the mid being a broad-band primary driver, with the woof being essentially a sub with a low x-over point.
Thanks again - still want pics!
Thanks for all the details of your WATT/Puppy clones - some very useful info there. Very surprised about the use of different drivers than Wilson's, but learning is what this forum is all about.
I especially abide by the "wide-range midrange" philosophy. Sometimes I see the difference between 3-way and 2-way + sub systems as one of semantics only - they're really both 3-ways - but I like the idea of the mid being a broad-band primary driver, with the woof being essentially a sub with a low x-over point.
Thanks again - still want pics!
"Sometimes I see the difference between 3-way and 2-way + sub systems as one of semantics only - they're really both 3-ways "
I digress, the two-way with sub is usually crossed over at 80 hz thus leaving the mid-range driver to cover all of the voice fundamentals without encountering a crossover. Maybe active crossovers can more accuratley crossover in the voice region but they'res still that voice that comes out of a big mouthed driver that I personally don't like.
To hear Diana Krall sing from two ten inch drivers crossed at 400 hz and then crossed at 80 hz was quite entertaining. I had to laugh at the difference. I don't know if she smokes or not, but she sure sounded like it on the 400 hz crossover point.
I digress, the two-way with sub is usually crossed over at 80 hz thus leaving the mid-range driver to cover all of the voice fundamentals without encountering a crossover. Maybe active crossovers can more accuratley crossover in the voice region but they'res still that voice that comes out of a big mouthed driver that I personally don't like.
To hear Diana Krall sing from two ten inch drivers crossed at 400 hz and then crossed at 80 hz was quite entertaining. I had to laugh at the difference. I don't know if she smokes or not, but she sure sounded like it on the 400 hz crossover point.
well I suppose you can have a 3way with the same crossover points as a 2way+sub, but you really need to go active with a <200hz LP filter, especially 18db/octave+ which will leave you with a biamped or triamped 3way. the 3way will also have stereo bass, however meaningfull that is.
Also 2way+sub gives you alot more flexibility in sub placement. I.E. you can put the sub in the corner and have your speakers out in the room, or you could put your speakers in the corners and have the sub out in the room. Not that either of those instances are prime locations, but you get the idea.
Regardless, I do believe having a crossover in any region defined as "critical" is not the absolute best idea. I suppose some might pull it off with the right speakers and crossover setup, but I think its a rare find.
I find that VERY hard to believe.... but if you say so, I'm not going to argue
I think that the 12 db crossover is the best compromise. Even a 12 db performs poorly in the time domain and higher order are much worse.
I don't have test equipment so I had a crossover LEAP designed to my specs. I wanted the lower crossover at around 80 Hz but I think I got about 120 Hz instead. However, the VIFA 9 inch bass driver that I'm using has exellent midrange timbre so it blends very well with the AUDAX carbon fiber.
I am designing a four way speaker for my HT which will use very inexpensive drivers and a 6 db crossover section. It will be in a cabinet very similar to the first ones but I have made the top cabinet two inches taller and the lower cabinet two inches shorter.
Here is a mockup of the cabinet using a 8 or 9 inch woofer. I will try and use drivers that allow very close placement.
Hezz
I don't have test equipment so I had a crossover LEAP designed to my specs. I wanted the lower crossover at around 80 Hz but I think I got about 120 Hz instead. However, the VIFA 9 inch bass driver that I'm using has exellent midrange timbre so it blends very well with the AUDAX carbon fiber.
I am designing a four way speaker for my HT which will use very inexpensive drivers and a 6 db crossover section. It will be in a cabinet very similar to the first ones but I have made the top cabinet two inches taller and the lower cabinet two inches shorter.
Here is a mockup of the cabinet using a 8 or 9 inch woofer. I will try and use drivers that allow very close placement.
Hezz
Attachments
Here are a couple of more advanced designs for a 10 inch four way speaker. I have since found that my speakers can be a maximum of 36 inches tall to allow room for the HT screen so this design is too tall.
The bracing method used in this design is similar to the one in my WATT/PUPPY clones. Except this one uses doulbe .5 inch MDF and my WATT clones used double wall .75 inch MDF.
Hezz
The bracing method used in this design is similar to the one in my WATT/PUPPY clones. Except this one uses doulbe .5 inch MDF and my WATT clones used double wall .75 inch MDF.
Hezz
Attachments
Here is a picture from the back showing more of the bracing scheme. Notice that the upper cabinet is acoustically divided so that the MIDBASS acoustic energy doesn't modulate the upper midrange driver.
In my original WATT clone I have additionally isolated the tweeter in a shallow closed off cavity so that the midrange acoustic energy does not couple with the tweeter magnet and frame. THe rear chamber of the tweeter is only plastic and will easily resonate with the internal acoustic energy.
This design is less ambitious but shows some of the design techniques.
Another important feature for the best midrange and midbass performance is that the midbass driver be critically or nearly critically damped. Even though this driver is not reaching down low this still effects the transient response of the driver. Therefore, if the midbass driver cannot be critically damped in the enclosure size that it has then it should be aperiodically loaded. The vented design in Wilsons upper cabinet is not ideal for the upper cabinet. The lower cabinet can be vented or sealed in critical damped enclosure or aperidically loaded. Depending on how much and what quality of bass is needed or wanted.
I don't have a digital camera but I will take some pictures of my clones and post them when I take some more pictures of my DIY projector project.
By the way, I have fiqured out how to mimick Wilsons high end cabinet design for a much lower cost. It is very labor intensive however.
Hezz
In my original WATT clone I have additionally isolated the tweeter in a shallow closed off cavity so that the midrange acoustic energy does not couple with the tweeter magnet and frame. THe rear chamber of the tweeter is only plastic and will easily resonate with the internal acoustic energy.
This design is less ambitious but shows some of the design techniques.
Another important feature for the best midrange and midbass performance is that the midbass driver be critically or nearly critically damped. Even though this driver is not reaching down low this still effects the transient response of the driver. Therefore, if the midbass driver cannot be critically damped in the enclosure size that it has then it should be aperiodically loaded. The vented design in Wilsons upper cabinet is not ideal for the upper cabinet. The lower cabinet can be vented or sealed in critical damped enclosure or aperidically loaded. Depending on how much and what quality of bass is needed or wanted.
I don't have a digital camera but I will take some pictures of my clones and post them when I take some more pictures of my DIY projector project.
By the way, I have fiqured out how to mimick Wilsons high end cabinet design for a much lower cost. It is very labor intensive however.
Hezz
Attachments
Audiobomber,
I don't have any published plans per se other than some older 2D drawings. I ended up making a few changes as I went along anyway. If however you are interested in a design similar to this I will feed you with enough information from what I have learned that you can make a pair that are even better. Possible even better than Wilsons own.
Those who have better electronic and crossover design skills than what my LEAP design can achive can even attain more refinement.
I did not have the time or money to experiment with lots of parts values but I can supply you with the exact drivers and crossover values. I believe all of the drivers I used are still available.
Hezz
I don't have any published plans per se other than some older 2D drawings. I ended up making a few changes as I went along anyway. If however you are interested in a design similar to this I will feed you with enough information from what I have learned that you can make a pair that are even better. Possible even better than Wilsons own.
Those who have better electronic and crossover design skills than what my LEAP design can achive can even attain more refinement.
I did not have the time or money to experiment with lots of parts values but I can supply you with the exact drivers and crossover values. I believe all of the drivers I used are still available.
Hezz
My listening review of every store bought <$30,000 speaker
This whole thread should be re-titled to "Listening impressions of some expensive speakers".
I've heard the same (expensive and not so expensive) speakers sound completely different in different environments and different system. I've never heard a Martin Logan I liked, but I don't blame it on the speakers. I'm quite ready to believe they can sound great. I've just never heard it. I heard Sophias in a shop with very expensive Mark Levinson gear and I was completely underwhelmed. I've heard the JM Lab Diva Utopia Be in two environments and it sucked in both. But some of my friends, who were probably more critical than me in the first two instances, say these speakers sound great in the home of the guy who eventually bought them. Expensive speakers are thoroughbreads and need care in placement, room acoustics and partnering equipment.
The one thing I would say about the above is, keep an open mind. Anyone who's been an audiophile for very long has had to eat his words and change his mind on something.
This whole thread should be re-titled to "Listening impressions of some expensive speakers".
I've heard the same (expensive and not so expensive) speakers sound completely different in different environments and different system. I've never heard a Martin Logan I liked, but I don't blame it on the speakers. I'm quite ready to believe they can sound great. I've just never heard it. I heard Sophias in a shop with very expensive Mark Levinson gear and I was completely underwhelmed. I've heard the JM Lab Diva Utopia Be in two environments and it sucked in both. But some of my friends, who were probably more critical than me in the first two instances, say these speakers sound great in the home of the guy who eventually bought them. Expensive speakers are thoroughbreads and need care in placement, room acoustics and partnering equipment.
The one thing I would say about the above is, keep an open mind. Anyone who's been an audiophile for very long has had to eat his words and change his mind on something.
azrix said:
It may not have been what you meant, but it is exactly what you said. I did a direct quote of your post with absolutely no changes made. You said...
In which sounds like you are saying you feel the Soundlab speakers are better by most accounts...your words. The you followed it up with...
In which sounds like you love your Soundlab speakers, and you haven't heard the Martin Logans yet...once again your words.
I could be taking this all the wrong way, so please elaborate if need be.
Noidster
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