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Old 1st May 2005, 06:42 AM   #11
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here is a design using 2 p 17 in a TL box made by a aussie who posts here http://www.geocities.com/etude316/audio/audio.html

they look as good as they sound
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Old 1st May 2005, 09:51 AM   #12
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I like the look of those Vifa TL speakers, I feel like I've seen every Vifa P17 design on the net

Now I'm pretty much wondering do I:

1. Stick with the one Vifa P17 and build a smallish tower.
2. Grab a Peerless 850122 or a driver that seems suited to a larger enclosure.
3. Save for two P17's and go for a TL MTM or just a plain vented MTM.

At least if I make a tower with just the one Vifa driver it will give me a bit of experience and later on I can always rip the drivers out and design again.

Just a bit of info about my setup, I recently sold my Pioneer VSX-C301 which is pioneer's slimline receiver range. Basicly the looks came a cost, my brothers DSE amp sounded noticably better. I have a pair of M5's (LSK kit speakers - there bookshelfs with (from memory) a 5.25" dayton driver *i think*) and at the moment I'm running a Technics Integrated amp (SU-X120) and some Technics 3 way speakers (SB-CD120), their the old chunky sort of speakers with a 1.5" tweeter, 3" mid, 8" woofer. I've been looking around for receivers for a while now and while I havent got anything yet I'm looking at getting a Cambridge Azur 540R (if I can find one at a good price - I've got about $1000AU to spend). I'm leaning away from the Yamaha receivers (even though their at really low prices) because 90% of the time it will be used for music. Anyway I was thinking (hehe this is going to really start getting confusing) I could use the preouts to go to my Technics amp and rebuild the technics speakers and just have the woofers running low passed.
......
Ok I've been thinking and ignore that idea I'll probably stick to the single Vifa woofer (I'm guessing its ok only having a 40W nomal power rating and the tweeter 100W ???) and I'll see how it goes from there.
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Old 1st May 2005, 04:30 PM   #13
GM is online now GM  United States
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Quote:
I'm guessing its ok only having a 40W nomal power rating and the tweeter 100W ???
Greets!

Obviously it's not an issue since it's such a well proven combo. Even if it wasn't, it's still not an issue since each driver will only use as much power as it 'feels' the need for based on the signal, and since acoustic energy falls at 1/f, the tweeter will only 'feel' the need for only a fraction of the total electrical power required.

WRT which to build, IMO it depends on what your long term goals are, i.e. want to build one set of speakers and get on with your life, or want it to be an on-going hobby. If the former, save up and build a proven hi-perf design. If the latter, then 'keep it simple, stupid' (KISS) and build a relatively inexpensive, well designed speaker to have something to enjoy while you're learning the craft and saving for the next project.

GM
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Old 7th May 2005, 07:08 AM   #14
Shrimp is offline Shrimp  New Zealand
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Thumbs up Vifa D27TG-35-06 and P17WJ-00-08

I built a pair of tower speakers using the same drivers, and the crossover from the 'Pilatus' concreate tower published in the Speaker Builder magazine.

Initially the internal volume was too large to tune properly, but when cut back to about 25L and retuned via a rear 50mm diameter port the bass is pretty good.

A mistake was that the Pilatus crossover is optimsed for woofer on top and tweeter at bottom, but I built the speaker the traditional way with tweeter top. This has resulted in a speaker that sounds better from below the axis of the tweeter! However, with the considerable step response compensation of the woofer's 1.8mH inductor this is a rather 'warm' sounding speaker anyway. The crossover is 2nd order on woofer, 3rd order on tweeter.

I have also built the 'free' crossover for this pair of drivers published by Madisound in their Vifa catalog. (In fact the tweeter there is the D27TG-45-06, but the only difference is the bulged faceplate, in other respects it is identical to the 35-06) This crossover is 1st order with impedence compensation on the woofer, and 2nd order on the tweeter. With this crossover the speaker is much more forward sounding, and the bass is not very pronounced. I prefer the pilatus crossover. Let me know if you would like the component values for it, as right way up (woofer on top) it would make a nice sounding speaker. Tip : these Vifa tweeters have a reputation for harsh sound in some circumstances - Vifa recommends a notch filter tuned to the resonance frequency, and it may be that some folks don't know this, hence the harsh sound. Notch filter is resistor, capacitor and inductor in series with each other, in parallel to tweeter after the xover, with values : 6.8ohms, 69mF, 0.9mH. This will damp the tweeter at it's resonance frequency.

Amplifier used is Pioneer A400 (poor mans audiophile amp, 50W/channel and very sweet sound) and oldish Philips CD player.

Someone has built a TL using these drivers and pilatus crossover, so it can be done. They used the Voight tapered pipe design which is very simple to make and results in a floor standing tower. (See the David Weems book called 'Great Sounding Speakers'.

My next project I hope is a 'budget' Ariel with MTM TL design using P13WH-00-08 drivers and the D27TG-05-06 tweeter. I have been working on the Xover using the CMP program which comes with the Weems speaker book.

Thats it. Good luck.
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Old 25th May 2005, 04:40 PM   #15
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Hi everyone

Been doing a bit of thinking and playing around with different ideas lately. What I've decided to do is make some largeish bookshelf speakers using the P17J and D27TG. While I do want floorstanders unless (in the future ) I get two woofers the box will simply be too large for what I want to tune it to. So my "bookshelfs" will most likely look like floorstanders just internaly the box volume will be halfed. I'm working on/looking for the crossover at the moment. The sensitivity of the P17 is 88dB and the Tweeter is 91dB so I've been told I have to damp the tweeter which makes sense but how do you do this? I'm also planing on making a matching centre but I have a question. I know ideally you should have an identical centre but is it ok if I use the same woofer/tweeter/xover but put it in a small sealed box instead?

Cheers Hopefully when I get the drivers and stuff (and my digital camera back) I'll take pics and show you the finished result. Thanks for all your help. Ooo by the way I got a new receiver... an Azur 540R. Its very lite on in the features department but the sound is very nice, and theres lots of power.
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Old 25th May 2005, 11:16 PM   #16
Shrimp is offline Shrimp  New Zealand
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Thumbs up Possible box tuning and Xover

Big Kev :

A recommended box tuning for the P17WJ-00-08 woofer is :
Internal volume : 22 Litres
Port : 60mm diameter, length 65mm

Crossover of the Pilotis :
Tweeter :
1) series resistor 6.8 Ohm (unusual, the padding is most often put immediately before the tweeter, but this must go here at front).
2) series capacitor 3.9 micro farad
3) parallel inductor 0.27 mH
4) series capacitor 6.8 micro farad
5) parallel D27TG-35-06 tweeter.

Woofer :
1) series inductor 1.8 mH
2) parallel capacitor 4.7 micro farad.
3) parallel P17WJ-00-08

The above will work - but maybe someone else on this forum with crossover software can tune the above better and provide required inductor resistances? Results can vary if you don't use exactly the right values.

The above values are for woofer on top, tweeter at bottom !

good luck.
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Old 26th May 2005, 12:58 AM   #17
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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Hi Big Kev !

I've got 2 friends building a P17WJ/D25AG-35 2 way floorstanding based on Dennis Murphy's (www.murphyblaster.com) crossover. Dennis built his own pair in an Ellis Audio (www.ellisaudio.com) 1801 cabinet, but my friends built their cabinets based on the floorstanding 1801f cabinet. By maintaining the same box volume and port tuning, and keeping close to the driver layount/spacing.

My friends and I like building speakers, but we don't have measurement equipment, crossover design software nor expertise to design a customised and optimised crossover, from scratch. If you are like this, for further info please see our website is www.kram0.com/gallery. Take a look at Mark's P17/D25 floorstander, with Dennis' crossover and measurements.

The design is fairly recent (2004) and I believe is based on modern P17/D25 drivers, which apparently, have changed a little over time, although manufacturer spec sheets do not reflect this.

The inductors arrived yesterday and we'll be ready to listen today/Friday, and will be able to report back on how they sound.

I feeling is that they should be pretty good. Not the last word in detail retrieval, but at moderate listening levels should suit pop/rock fine.

regards,
Thanh.
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Old 27th May 2005, 04:41 PM   #18
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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Ok the P17/D25 is a wrap!

Unfortunately it was too good, and revealed all sorts of up-stream and down-stream problems.

The CD player clips it outputs, and needs to be turned down whenever it's power on.

The RCA cables are unsheilded. Although humming is a pretty common problem, this is the first time I've heard an A/C 50Hz hum through a subwoofer. hmmm.

The room is too live, almost like a bathroom. Now I should have guessed this, I mean- look at that room. Wooden floorboards, modern deco, venetians blinds and not much soft furnishings at all.

As soon as we fix up all these problems, and throw a rug down, I'll play more Keith Jarret, Diana Krall, Patricia Barber, Rod Stewart, as well as Black Eyed Peas and post some comments about how they REALLY sound.

As the moment all I can hear is 1) the room (if it's loud) or 2) the hum (if it's soft)
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Old 28th May 2005, 02:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by tktran
The RCA cables are unsheilded. Although humming is a pretty common problem, this is the first time I've heard an A/C 50Hz hum through a subwoofer. hmmm.
My dad had a similar problem with his sub and speakers, when we got rid of the earth on the sub amp it went away.
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