Right, in post #25 it just said apply the die the afternoon after moistening the surface.
If I don't do the plaster approach (which I'm not sure is practical for the large areas) Do I just use a rag to apply? Or a paint roller (like pinky mouse suggested). Do I need to rub it in or just let it sit there?
Well regardless, perhaps I'll email you after I've obtained the wood. I'm just trying to get as much info as possible, forgive me if I get annoying.
Thanks again for all of your help.
-Wes
If I don't do the plaster approach (which I'm not sure is practical for the large areas) Do I just use a rag to apply? Or a paint roller (like pinky mouse suggested). Do I need to rub it in or just let it sit there?
Well regardless, perhaps I'll email you after I've obtained the wood. I'm just trying to get as much info as possible, forgive me if I get annoying.
Thanks again for all of your help.
-Wes
Not annoying!
Hi Wes
There will be a steep learning curve to do this. To make matters worse there maybe other other veneers that will allow you to do this type of finnish. You need a veneer that has pronounced early grain and late grain. Woods such as elm burl will have this. Oak is a good example of early and late transition. The darker rings and the lighter rings are actually one year of growth. Maple does not have these qualities. To get the effect you have to fill the early wood with a colour that will be different to the colour achieved in the late wood. Ie darker or lighter. You may have to colour the more porous areas with a lighter colour. And the more dense areas could be stained a different colour. Or the reverse depending on the effect that you want and the properties of the veneer. Don't go out a blow hundreds of dollars on veneer and then find out that you can't pull off what you were shooting for. Bottom line is there are veneers that look like what you want. You have to look. THe Italians are famous for the type that you are looking for. Do some net trawling before you jump.
As for the plaster of paris idea you can easily do your whole box in one sitting with a bit of forethought.
Only practice with a nudge from someone who has done it before will get you what you want. Happy experimenting
To be fair I would have to think two or three times before I accepted a job like the one you want to pull off! Ive done filled grain before but this will be a master piece if you pull it off.
Mark
Hi Wes
There will be a steep learning curve to do this. To make matters worse there maybe other other veneers that will allow you to do this type of finnish. You need a veneer that has pronounced early grain and late grain. Woods such as elm burl will have this. Oak is a good example of early and late transition. The darker rings and the lighter rings are actually one year of growth. Maple does not have these qualities. To get the effect you have to fill the early wood with a colour that will be different to the colour achieved in the late wood. Ie darker or lighter. You may have to colour the more porous areas with a lighter colour. And the more dense areas could be stained a different colour. Or the reverse depending on the effect that you want and the properties of the veneer. Don't go out a blow hundreds of dollars on veneer and then find out that you can't pull off what you were shooting for. Bottom line is there are veneers that look like what you want. You have to look. THe Italians are famous for the type that you are looking for. Do some net trawling before you jump.
As for the plaster of paris idea you can easily do your whole box in one sitting with a bit of forethought.
Only practice with a nudge from someone who has done it before will get you what you want. Happy experimenting
To be fair I would have to think two or three times before I accepted a job like the one you want to pull off! Ive done filled grain before but this will be a master piece if you pull it off.
Mark
I believe the manmade veneer I used was from formwood you might give them a call and ask. (I took it on a trade for drivers)
Maple would be a pain to die black. Very prone to splotching. If you can find something softer you may consider that.
The best way to get a consistent stain is to spray a water/alcohol mix with a spray gun or spray bottle. Don't wipe it off.
Maple would be a pain to die black. Very prone to splotching. If you can find something softer you may consider that.
The best way to get a consistent stain is to spray a water/alcohol mix with a spray gun or spray bottle. Don't wipe it off.
Good Point.
I keep trying to think along these lines.
1 How would I do it if it was my job
2 How to explain it to someone who has never done it before.
THe blotchy maple will be a real problem.
If I were going this I would find some veneer that had the figure and the open pore early wood that I allready talked about. Olive ash burl comes to mind. But bottom line is that you have to see it. Pigment the open pore layer.
You want veneer that has really prominent lighter and darker areas. Porous and not so porous.
I personally would do the pigmented plaster of paris method. It works! THen I would spray on a couple of light coats of shellac. The kind that you mix not the bought stuff. Blond shellac or even super blonde. Mix the flakes in Methyl Hydrate. Then I would mix up a shading stain in a laquer or a solvent based varnish.
MEASURE THE COLOUR ANILINE DYE AND THE AMOUNT OF LAQUER OR VARNISH. DON'T GUESS. YOU MAY NEED TO MIX MORE AND HEAVEN HELP YOU IF YOU DON'T MATCH IT!!
By measuring you will have a basis to do a repeat. All this should be on a test piece to begin with. You like you may want to repeat NO?
The more coats the better the colour. Don't forget to sand in between coats. A tack cloth can be made from a lint free rag with a bit of varnish misted over it. Just wait until it is tacky! This colour coat must be sprayed on! It is basically building up a colour with sucessive coats of a translucent coloured laquer. Once you get to the desired colour let it dry a bit and give it a couple of clear coats. Sand it lightly with 400 or 600. Do a wet sand with a bit of slightly soapy water and clean it off good. Use a block that is flat and then you will have a uniformally dull surface. Give it the last coat and it should look great.
Hopefully not clear as mud.
Mark
I keep trying to think along these lines.
1 How would I do it if it was my job
2 How to explain it to someone who has never done it before.
THe blotchy maple will be a real problem.
If I were going this I would find some veneer that had the figure and the open pore early wood that I allready talked about. Olive ash burl comes to mind. But bottom line is that you have to see it. Pigment the open pore layer.
You want veneer that has really prominent lighter and darker areas. Porous and not so porous.
I personally would do the pigmented plaster of paris method. It works! THen I would spray on a couple of light coats of shellac. The kind that you mix not the bought stuff. Blond shellac or even super blonde. Mix the flakes in Methyl Hydrate. Then I would mix up a shading stain in a laquer or a solvent based varnish.
MEASURE THE COLOUR ANILINE DYE AND THE AMOUNT OF LAQUER OR VARNISH. DON'T GUESS. YOU MAY NEED TO MIX MORE AND HEAVEN HELP YOU IF YOU DON'T MATCH IT!!
By measuring you will have a basis to do a repeat. All this should be on a test piece to begin with. You like you may want to repeat NO?
The more coats the better the colour. Don't forget to sand in between coats. A tack cloth can be made from a lint free rag with a bit of varnish misted over it. Just wait until it is tacky! This colour coat must be sprayed on! It is basically building up a colour with sucessive coats of a translucent coloured laquer. Once you get to the desired colour let it dry a bit and give it a couple of clear coats. Sand it lightly with 400 or 600. Do a wet sand with a bit of slightly soapy water and clean it off good. Use a block that is flat and then you will have a uniformally dull surface. Give it the last coat and it should look great.
Hopefully not clear as mud.
Mark
I found this site. It seems to have a great collection of wood types.
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/#letterR
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/#letterR
Check out Constantines.com they have some cool dyed/imitation veneers that come prety close to the B&Ws
Nate
http://www.constantines.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1989
Nate
http://www.constantines.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1989
Getting Closer
Ok, that immitation ash from constantines looks really good. Assuming that it can be dyed just like normal veneer I'm probably going to order a sample of that to practice with. I'll call and ask about the open/closed pores.
My question now is what else I need to get. Mark, I was probably going to do what you were talking about with plaster of paris technique; it sounds interesting. My list so far is:
1) Veneer (duh)
2) Plaster of Paris
3) Super Blonde Shellac (is this to make the light tones stand out? As well as a sealer?)
4) Black analine dye
5) Something to tint the plaster mix with... (you mentioned black vegetable dye, where can this be bought?)
6) Varnish (any suggestions as to which brands are good?)
7) Sand paper
Is there anything else you would add? Any speciality tools that can't be bought at home depot or similar store that I will need to order from a veneer distributor? I think I'll probably go with contact cement because it requires fewer tools. Also can the shellac be applied with a rag or does it have to be sprayed on?
Thanks again
-Wes
Ok, that immitation ash from constantines looks really good. Assuming that it can be dyed just like normal veneer I'm probably going to order a sample of that to practice with. I'll call and ask about the open/closed pores.
My question now is what else I need to get. Mark, I was probably going to do what you were talking about with plaster of paris technique; it sounds interesting. My list so far is:
1) Veneer (duh)
2) Plaster of Paris
3) Super Blonde Shellac (is this to make the light tones stand out? As well as a sealer?)
4) Black analine dye
5) Something to tint the plaster mix with... (you mentioned black vegetable dye, where can this be bought?)
6) Varnish (any suggestions as to which brands are good?)
7) Sand paper
Is there anything else you would add? Any speciality tools that can't be bought at home depot or similar store that I will need to order from a veneer distributor? I think I'll probably go with contact cement because it requires fewer tools. Also can the shellac be applied with a rag or does it have to be sprayed on?
Thanks again
-Wes
I don't think that the stuff from Constantines is paper backed, so I would stay away from contact cement when using real wood veneer. Cold or Hot press Veneer glue would work better. It is even possible to "iron" on the veneer using yellow wood glue. There are a couple articles on this floating around the web.
Nate
Nate
I thunk and I thunk and now I have a headache.
THe black is going to be a powder. Carbon black or whatever. Just tell them you want to colour a plaster black.
The shellac should be brushed. The other finish can be brushed if you have a good quality brush. They don't have to be expensive either.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20040&cat=1,190,43034
One of the best I have ever used.
Varnishes? My favorite for longevity is varathane diamond brand. It is water white. No amber colour. It dries quickly. And it sands well.
PRACTICE!
And you will get something that is unobtainable commercially. As for glue look into hide glue.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20002&cat=1,110,42965
It is not that hard and it is very forgiving. Some moisteure and heat and it will come off. Eventually. But leave it alone and it is one of the toughest glues available. What you want to do is hammer veneering. A "hammer" can be whipped up out of wood once you see one in metal. A cheap hammer handle and some scaps of maple will get the right shape and some glue and a bit of sawing will make what you need. Screw the forty bucks!
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49945&cat=1,250,43298,43314
Hope this helps!
MArk
THe black is going to be a powder. Carbon black or whatever. Just tell them you want to colour a plaster black.
The shellac should be brushed. The other finish can be brushed if you have a good quality brush. They don't have to be expensive either.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20040&cat=1,190,43034
One of the best I have ever used.
Varnishes? My favorite for longevity is varathane diamond brand. It is water white. No amber colour. It dries quickly. And it sands well.
PRACTICE!
And you will get something that is unobtainable commercially. As for glue look into hide glue.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20002&cat=1,110,42965
It is not that hard and it is very forgiving. Some moisteure and heat and it will come off. Eventually. But leave it alone and it is one of the toughest glues available. What you want to do is hammer veneering. A "hammer" can be whipped up out of wood once you see one in metal. A cheap hammer handle and some scaps of maple will get the right shape and some glue and a bit of sawing will make what you need. Screw the forty bucks!
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49945&cat=1,250,43298,43314
Hope this helps!
MArk
That definitely helps... Thanks.
One more Q... How thick should the slurry be spread on top of the wood? (couple of mils or are we talking cm?)
Also, whats the best way of spreading this stuff on?
Finally, am I going to get a huge power mess when I sand it off (like cover everything in room with black dust?)
Thanks for the input
-Wes
One more Q... How thick should the slurry be spread on top of the wood? (couple of mils or are we talking cm?)
Also, whats the best way of spreading this stuff on?
Finally, am I going to get a huge power mess when I sand it off (like cover everything in room with black dust?)
Thanks for the input
-Wes
Probably the easiest dyes I've worked with are the Transtint brand from Homestead Finishing (also available at Woodcraft).
For shellac/sealer you can try Zinsser Sealcoat (dewaxed shellac)
For mine I simply dyed the wood by spraying a water/alcohol based dye on the veneer. (I'd add a bit of red or brown to warm up the color) Let it dry, lightly sand with 400 to expose the raw wood, and seal with the shellac.
If you need more contrast in the pores, you could also use a glaze with color added after you seal in the dye. Seal again with shellac, then clear coat.
I've never used plaster of paris as pore filler, but I would suspect the grain on the veneer would be pretty small, you might find the glaze easier to use.
You may want to post this at homestead forum (great advice from pro finishers)
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/portal.php
For shellac/sealer you can try Zinsser Sealcoat (dewaxed shellac)
For mine I simply dyed the wood by spraying a water/alcohol based dye on the veneer. (I'd add a bit of red or brown to warm up the color) Let it dry, lightly sand with 400 to expose the raw wood, and seal with the shellac.
If you need more contrast in the pores, you could also use a glaze with color added after you seal in the dye. Seal again with shellac, then clear coat.
I've never used plaster of paris as pore filler, but I would suspect the grain on the veneer would be pretty small, you might find the glaze easier to use.
You may want to post this at homestead forum (great advice from pro finishers)
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/portal.php
Hello,
I've ordered some samples from constantines, and the grain patturn is exactly what I'm looking for at a decent price. Unfortunately its not paperbacked so I'm looking for some other options.
In the mean time I plan on ordering some dye and trying out my sample in a practice board. Still debating about which application method to choose. I'll post pic once I make some progress.
-Wes
I've ordered some samples from constantines, and the grain patturn is exactly what I'm looking for at a decent price. Unfortunately its not paperbacked so I'm looking for some other options.
In the mean time I plan on ordering some dye and trying out my sample in a practice board. Still debating about which application method to choose. I'll post pic once I make some progress.
-Wes
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