Box size is part of the deal with efficiency and a slighly shelved alignment often fits in well with room behaviour below 100Hz (though not always). EQ and positioning are your friends (I use two P.Audio C18-650ELs in a 175L ported boxes for sub-duty, generally tuned to 23Hz though 40Hz if I unplug two of my four ports). A floorstander 40x30x120 internal gives you 144l, make that 130-odd allowing for some bracing, driver and port volume.
That Beyma is supposedly a good option (not heard it though) and I have had reasonably good experiences with the P.Audio 1.75" diaphragm 1" exit compression drivers (tip: PH-220 which is an RCF H100 clone, works a charm and would be a perfect playing partner for a 8" or 10"). The BM-D450 has a diaphragm-related ringing at 10kHz but is fairly well behaved otherwise.
My current project is a matching Oblate Spheroidal Waveguide for the 15" ... or the 12" (not quite decided yet, but thinking of going for the 15")
The Winner 12S I have in 65l ported enclosures, currently tuned 55-60Hz (I can measure it if you want) and it performs reasonably well up to almost 2kHz where cone resonance starts to come in (reasonably damped though). Also has an octagonal alu basket for that PHL/PD look (though I am shocked at the affordability of the PHL drivers mentioned earlier in the thread)
The 15s are actually in Speakerplans.com X15s cabs atm with two more awaiting hi-fi or stage-monitor use (with a larger-format compression driver). BMD-450 on PH-220 (only recently passive x-over at 1.9kHz due to high power use) These are PA type cabs and work well.
Regards
Martin
That Beyma is supposedly a good option (not heard it though) and I have had reasonably good experiences with the P.Audio 1.75" diaphragm 1" exit compression drivers (tip: PH-220 which is an RCF H100 clone, works a charm and would be a perfect playing partner for a 8" or 10"). The BM-D450 has a diaphragm-related ringing at 10kHz but is fairly well behaved otherwise.
My current project is a matching Oblate Spheroidal Waveguide for the 15" ... or the 12" (not quite decided yet, but thinking of going for the 15")
The Winner 12S I have in 65l ported enclosures, currently tuned 55-60Hz (I can measure it if you want) and it performs reasonably well up to almost 2kHz where cone resonance starts to come in (reasonably damped though). Also has an octagonal alu basket for that PHL/PD look (though I am shocked at the affordability of the PHL drivers mentioned earlier in the thread)
The 15s are actually in Speakerplans.com X15s cabs atm with two more awaiting hi-fi or stage-monitor use (with a larger-format compression driver). BMD-450 on PH-220 (only recently passive x-over at 1.9kHz due to high power use) These are PA type cabs and work well.
Regards
Martin
> I am shocked at the affordability of the PHL drivers mentioned earlier in the thread
I was too when I saw them!
If you stick with 30x30x120, internally 90 litres odd, I’d go FE 166/167 and Eminence Kappa Pro 10 or SN-12 MB.
But yes increase width 10 cm and a SN-15MB is better.
How much are P.Audio PH-220 & BM-D450?
With the Behringer (which exact model, I was thinking of CX-2400) are we blowing the budget?
Playing with a CX-2400, I’d try crossover points between 150 – 1200 Hz, by my hunch is 300 – 500 Hz may be best, rather than push a big midbass high, to moderate beaming and more importantly gain midrange detail.
I was too when I saw them!
If you stick with 30x30x120, internally 90 litres odd, I’d go FE 166/167 and Eminence Kappa Pro 10 or SN-12 MB.
But yes increase width 10 cm and a SN-15MB is better.
How much are P.Audio PH-220 & BM-D450?
With the Behringer (which exact model, I was thinking of CX-2400) are we blowing the budget?
Playing with a CX-2400, I’d try crossover points between 150 – 1200 Hz, by my hunch is 300 – 500 Hz may be best, rather than push a big midbass high, to moderate beaming and more importantly gain midrange detail.
(This project really interests me!)
Other mid bass options (from the pinkish rows here):
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-7-woofs.php3#WOOF-12-
Eminence Beta 8 & 10, Beta 12LT; Stryke SAE-1204 (less efficient, more extension).
Alas the Lambdas were too dear, and now only a few models are available from Stryke.
Oh, some find the Fostex a little rough up high. Can you try before you buy?
Other mid bass options (from the pinkish rows here):
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-7-woofs.php3#WOOF-12-
Eminence Beta 8 & 10, Beta 12LT; Stryke SAE-1204 (less efficient, more extension).
Alas the Lambdas were too dear, and now only a few models are available from Stryke.
Oh, some find the Fostex a little rough up high. Can you try before you buy?
You should get some good ideas at the real home of this thread - High Efficiency Speakers
www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html
Keep us posted
www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html
Keep us posted
I don't think those Emminence are really good runners compared to other HE speakers out there. BM-D450 and PH-220 are about the bottom of what I'd consider, though for home use I'd probably look for something a little nicer. BMS are cheap as chips in the states, but that's not the case in finland methinks. For impressing friends and the like though, that combo is just fine!
Also after you have used a controller like the DCX you will understand why a "normal" active crossover doesn't cut it anymore. You just loose so much by going to old route for not much less expense (especially when seen i.t.o total cost).
Also after you have used a controller like the DCX you will understand why a "normal" active crossover doesn't cut it anymore. You just loose so much by going to old route for not much less expense (especially when seen i.t.o total cost).
> I don't think those Emminence are really good runners compared to other HE speakers out there.
I wonder how at the low price of Eminence how good they are, but I’ve read a number of good reports on them at the High Efficiency Speakers forum and on web pages. From here http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/eminence.php3
the Beta 12LT could be the choice for this kmj.
I think they’d be fine, especially if you crossed them low, eg at 250 Hz (to the Fostex).
You’re quite right about the DCX, if you want to go active and spend that little more.
I have no idea of pricing in Sweden, but for “350$ (preferably below)” it may be either Eminence (driven by Hypex, for its control, rather than its power) & DCX, or P.Audio & passive.
Though if you’re going active & Hypex, the Peerless XLS 12 could be the way to go. DST say that with a 4th order, they can be crossed at up to 280 Hz.
What are you thinking kmj?
I wonder how at the low price of Eminence how good they are, but I’ve read a number of good reports on them at the High Efficiency Speakers forum and on web pages. From here http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/eminence.php3
the Beta 12LT could be the choice for this kmj.
I think they’d be fine, especially if you crossed them low, eg at 250 Hz (to the Fostex).
You’re quite right about the DCX, if you want to go active and spend that little more.
I have no idea of pricing in Sweden, but for “350$ (preferably below)” it may be either Eminence (driven by Hypex, for its control, rather than its power) & DCX, or P.Audio & passive.
Though if you’re going active & Hypex, the Peerless XLS 12 could be the way to go. DST say that with a 4th order, they can be crossed at up to 280 Hz.
What are you thinking kmj?
purevox uses Eminence with TAD TD-4001s! If he could afford TADs he could have afforded something dearer than Eminence . .
www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=608643&highlight=#post608643
www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=608643&highlight=#post608643
Eminence pro audio woofers are extremely good quality for money. Do NOT discount them. They do fine. The Delta, the 12 & 15LF are excellent, musical, sensitive and really easy to implement. Pi Speaker's Wayne Parham has been using them successfully, with his outstanding designs for years.
I would stay away from their coaxials, unless using Adire Audio crossovers. Those kits might be of interest to you.
I would stay away from their coaxials, unless using Adire Audio crossovers. Those kits might be of interest to you.
?....and better. No doubt they know what they are doing.
I tried two of their Cannabis Rex hemp cone guitar speakers as midrangers, and the extension, and just plain SLAM those bunnies had made me realize that one could build an unusually musical design right around these none too expensive hemp cone 12's. The material, the cone size and the years of expertise and custom design clearly were evident in the sonic.
I believe there is even a crossover program right on their website.
I tried two of their Cannabis Rex hemp cone guitar speakers as midrangers, and the extension, and just plain SLAM those bunnies had made me realize that one could build an unusually musical design right around these none too expensive hemp cone 12's. The material, the cone size and the years of expertise and custom design clearly were evident in the sonic.
I believe there is even a crossover program right on their website.
Interesting response curve 
www.eminence.com/eminence/pages/products02/pdf/cannabisrex16.pdf
It gets
higher as you go along 
www.eminence.com/eminence/pages/products02/pdf/cannabisrex16.pdfIt gets
higher as you go along 
Nearly all pro audio drivers (especially from eminence) have a rising response or a bump in the upper end, this is not hard to sort out if you can measure everything.
I see no mention of bafflestep here, remember your 95-96dB fostex drivers will end up being 90-91.
If you do a three way (two way if its a full ranger) with two 95dB bass drives giving 101dB, after baffle step has taken place your back at 95. Compensate for baffle step loss in the high pass of the fostex and your back at a 95 speaker.
Although this doesnt look well suited to a valve amp having parallel bass drivers giving 4ohms.
Another thing to beware of is most two ways are NOT what their quoted sensativity says they are, atleast in the consumer world.
Nearly all 88dB speakers come out more like 82-83 when measured by hifi magazines. So if you are used to say a consumer product which quotes 88, they may not be 88 at all more like 83. So if you build a real 88-90 speaker you may be surprised.
Making really sensative loudspeakers for home use is not an easy task, mainly in the bass. Getting mid/tweeters to do 95 is quite easy, getting bass to do it requires a 101dB sensative driver, those are generally large and expensive.
I see no mention of bafflestep here, remember your 95-96dB fostex drivers will end up being 90-91.
If you do a three way (two way if its a full ranger) with two 95dB bass drives giving 101dB, after baffle step has taken place your back at 95. Compensate for baffle step loss in the high pass of the fostex and your back at a 95 speaker.
Although this doesnt look well suited to a valve amp having parallel bass drivers giving 4ohms.
Another thing to beware of is most two ways are NOT what their quoted sensativity says they are, atleast in the consumer world.
Nearly all 88dB speakers come out more like 82-83 when measured by hifi magazines. So if you are used to say a consumer product which quotes 88, they may not be 88 at all more like 83. So if you build a real 88-90 speaker you may be surprised.
Making really sensative loudspeakers for home use is not an easy task, mainly in the bass. Getting mid/tweeters to do 95 is quite easy, getting bass to do it requires a 101dB sensative driver, those are generally large and expensive.
5th element
The conclusion/ direction I draw from your very valid points is, if you really need 93-95 dB:
1. Set the XO at the BS point
2. Compensate for baffle step loss in the high pass of the fostex
3. Most of the Eminence specs quote sensitivity near the highest point on their FR curves, but are usually in a typical home bass passband average 5 dB lower, about the same as the XLS 12. So use two bass drivers, XLS if you can afford them and can set the XO no more than 300 Hz.
4. Parallel bass drivers – cross actively and use a Hypex.
Cheers
The conclusion/ direction I draw from your very valid points is, if you really need 93-95 dB:
1. Set the XO at the BS point
2. Compensate for baffle step loss in the high pass of the fostex
3. Most of the Eminence specs quote sensitivity near the highest point on their FR curves, but are usually in a typical home bass passband average 5 dB lower, about the same as the XLS 12. So use two bass drivers, XLS if you can afford them and can set the XO no more than 300 Hz.
4. Parallel bass drivers – cross actively and use a Hypex.
Cheers
I think in general Eminence doesn't present that good a value when compared to 18Sound, B&C, Ciare, McCauley, BMS and the like, though granted you will find very good drivers in their standard product line-up (they do some well-respected OEM work too). The task is to find out which of their drivers present a true value (same problem with the mass of drivers P.Audio does, some of which are destined for cheap and nasty piezo boxes)
I have heard good things about the Alpha 6 and the Kappa 12 is supposedly quite competent (in Pro-Sound applications), but like all speakers it's more about the correct implementation of the crossover and enclosure and the last little bit is using the potential in the drivers themselves.
In South Africa for instance the price premium of Eminence over eg. 18Sound is rather absurd (eg. 12MB606 is 20% more than the Kappa 12 (non-pro) and that choice is an absolute no-brainer in my book. The alu basket stuff makes it worthwhile to import B&C from some online shops for similar money.
To get back onto the topic, what's available in Finland for reasonable money?
I have heard good things about the Alpha 6 and the Kappa 12 is supposedly quite competent (in Pro-Sound applications), but like all speakers it's more about the correct implementation of the crossover and enclosure and the last little bit is using the potential in the drivers themselves.
In South Africa for instance the price premium of Eminence over eg. 18Sound is rather absurd (eg. 12MB606 is 20% more than the Kappa 12 (non-pro) and that choice is an absolute no-brainer in my book. The alu basket stuff makes it worthwhile to import B&C from some online shops for similar money.
To get back onto the topic, what's available in Finland for reasonable money?
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