hello all, i have a simple question that will probably tern in to a flame war but here goes...
what is the differance between ribbon/planer tweeter vs a dome tweeter (textile/silk), acoustically?
i would like to know what you ppl think in terms smoothness, response (on and off axis), and a bunch of other things i cant think of right now, cus its 12AM were im at and i should be in bed.
the reason i ask is that all my life i have been exposed to dome,cone, and horn hfd (metal, mylar, paper, ect), you know the usual crap. i do have a pair of seas 25tnf h392-6ohm tweeters and a pair of peerless 850116 6.5 woofers for a project im doing, but im in the planning stages for 7- 2way active speakers for my home theater. and was thinking planer/ribbons would be cool, and sound great. i dont know anyone that has or has heard these types of tweet's and was looking for some feed back here.
if this has been asked before, im sorry, i search and could not find anything that would help answer my question. thanx...
what is the differance between ribbon/planer tweeter vs a dome tweeter (textile/silk), acoustically?
i would like to know what you ppl think in terms smoothness, response (on and off axis), and a bunch of other things i cant think of right now, cus its 12AM were im at and i should be in bed.
the reason i ask is that all my life i have been exposed to dome,cone, and horn hfd (metal, mylar, paper, ect), you know the usual crap. i do have a pair of seas 25tnf h392-6ohm tweeters and a pair of peerless 850116 6.5 woofers for a project im doing, but im in the planning stages for 7- 2way active speakers for my home theater. and was thinking planer/ribbons would be cool, and sound great. i dont know anyone that has or has heard these types of tweet's and was looking for some feed back here.
if this has been asked before, im sorry, i search and could not find anything that would help answer my question. thanx...
It's anything but a simple question. About the only advice I can offer is to go and listen to them side by side and form your own opinion. We can't tell you which is the way to go. That's why there were 55 views and no replies at this typing.
Let us know when you have listened and what your thoughts are.
Cal
Let us know when you have listened and what your thoughts are.
Cal
To make your quest more complicated, the ribbon/planar are actually two different drivers. There is a pure ribbon tweeter
like Raven, AC, Fountek, etc. and there is magnetic planars
which are made differently than pure ribbons. Some call these
isodynamic planars. To confuse you more, some
companies call their magnetic planar a ribbon tweeter. /hehe
Pure ribbon example;
http://www.madisound.com/neocd3.0.html
$81, you may call this an entry level ribbon.. I don't know if
there are any others cheaper than this price wise...
Isodynamic planar [magnetic planar] example;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-085
$32, as low as $24 in bulk. This is probably the low cost
you'll find in this category. [note, they call it a ribbon tweeter].
Both types have their own sound... and you already know
what domes sound like so all you need is to try one of each
to get an idea of the sonic character. Even if you don't like
the sound of these entry level drivers, keep in mind there
are better pure ribbons and magnetic planars that cost hundreds
of dollars each and they may have a better sound than the lower cost ones, depends on who is listening.
/hehe
like Raven, AC, Fountek, etc. and there is magnetic planars
which are made differently than pure ribbons. Some call these
isodynamic planars. To confuse you more, some
companies call their magnetic planar a ribbon tweeter. /hehe
Pure ribbon example;
http://www.madisound.com/neocd3.0.html
$81, you may call this an entry level ribbon.. I don't know if
there are any others cheaper than this price wise...
Isodynamic planar [magnetic planar] example;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-085
$32, as low as $24 in bulk. This is probably the low cost
you'll find in this category. [note, they call it a ribbon tweeter].
Both types have their own sound... and you already know
what domes sound like so all you need is to try one of each
to get an idea of the sonic character. Even if you don't like
the sound of these entry level drivers, keep in mind there
are better pure ribbons and magnetic planars that cost hundreds
of dollars each and they may have a better sound than the lower cost ones, depends on who is listening.
/hehe
I wonder the same thing. 20+ years ago I used a planar tweeter and liked it a lot. Unfortunately, the one I used was only suitable as a super tweeter, so my more recent systems have used various domes, most recently the Focal T120TD5. link
I'm in the process of building a pair of speakers identical to these except they will use the Fountek JP3 (predecessor to the NEOCD3 mentioned above). Of course the XO will be slightly different, but I'll be able to do a ribbon/dome tweeter comparison. It'll probably take me a couple of months to finish, but I'll post my impressions.
I'm in the process of building a pair of speakers identical to these except they will use the Fountek JP3 (predecessor to the NEOCD3 mentioned above). Of course the XO will be slightly different, but I'll be able to do a ribbon/dome tweeter comparison. It'll probably take me a couple of months to finish, but I'll post my impressions.
Cal Weldon said:
i plan to do this, what im looking for is other ppl's opinions and feelings so i have an idea what im getting in to. i will be doing a side by side listening test with the woofer, a dome, and 3 or 4 plainer and ribbions.
thylantyr said:
this i did not know! thank you... i will have to be carefull when selecting.i do plan to spend a lot of money on these speakers, im in the design stage now, and im looking to get parts to prototype for the final setup.
BobEllis said:
nice!!!!
BobEllis said:
cant wait to see when you done and read you impression, thanx.
planet10 said:
im going to be building 7 active speakers for HT and music, the 2 mains and the 4 surrounds will each have a 6.5 and a tweeter. the center ch speaker mite have a MTM design, but i haven't decided yet. i plane to have an adjustible/bypassable active x-over from 50-110 hz. the internal network im looking at is letting the woofer rolloff naturally @ 5000hz and a 12db x-over at aroung 5kHz as well for the tweeter. the 6.5 will be in its own chamber, the electronics will be in there own chamber and with the x-over and tweet. i plan to use 5/8 mdf with bracing, this is what i got sketched out right now.
i am looking to get the smoothest sound possible, and loudness. any advice, constructive opinions, and links to parts of interest, examples, ect. please post them im all eyes (...eer ears). thanx
You aren't going to have more than a handful of options for a mid that can cover that range. On the plus side, virtually any (non-supertweeter) ribbon will work.
My suggestion is try to find the mid you need and work from there. I would be prepared to go lower on the HP crossover...there are a number of credible mids from 100-3kHz. You are hampered by the fact that you can't use a true mid due to the 100Hz requirement that a two-way design will enforce, and most mid-woofs are not happy above 3k.
Maybe a nice poly cone would be good for HT, although it seems odd to pair a high-detail driver like an aluminum ribbon with a poly cone.
My suggestion is try to find the mid you need and work from there. I would be prepared to go lower on the HP crossover...there are a number of credible mids from 100-3kHz. You are hampered by the fact that you can't use a true mid due to the 100Hz requirement that a two-way design will enforce, and most mid-woofs are not happy above 3k.
Maybe a nice poly cone would be good for HT, although it seems odd to pair a high-detail driver like an aluminum ribbon with a poly cone.
im a fan of composite cones myself, they all seemed to sound the best to me. this is the woofer i plan to use: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-308
the 100Hz is just the highest setting on the active x-over im looking at, but that could change, the encloser i was modeling rolled off low at around 50Hz or so. in my experiance, speakers in cabs that try to produce frequency's below the this tend to start to sound distorty and gritty. i will be using a pair of 12' sub's in this system as well. i was just giving the passive x-over some thought, and you mite be right on that one, but ill have to play with settings to see how it sounds. thanx
the 100Hz is just the highest setting on the active x-over im looking at, but that could change, the encloser i was modeling rolled off low at around 50Hz or so. in my experiance, speakers in cabs that try to produce frequency's below the this tend to start to sound distorty and gritty. i will be using a pair of 12' sub's in this system as well. i was just giving the passive x-over some thought, and you mite be right on that one, but ill have to play with settings to see how it sounds. thanx
For the mid-bass you should consider the PHL 1220 , 1230 or 1240.
I havent heard them myself, but are reported to sound great with ribbon tweeters.
Ribbons(good ones) are extremely transparent, i doubt that any normal polycone can keep up with that..
Maybe the Adire Extremis 6.8 could??
Regards,
Peter
I havent heard them myself, but are reported to sound great with ribbon tweeters.
Ribbons(good ones) are extremely transparent, i doubt that any normal polycone can keep up with that..
Maybe the Adire Extremis 6.8 could??
Regards,
Peter
the Vifa woofer has a good reputation, but I think you're stretching it going up to 5K. Although the on axis response goes up to 5K fairly smoothly, that little shelf up to 8K indicates some breakup modes that may not sound nice if you don't roll it off sooner. Not as bad as some of the metal cones, but I think you'll like it better rolled off sooner.
Also, notice that the off axis response drops significantly well before 5KHz - this is the "beaming" effect of a 6.5" driver. Your polar response will have a larger discontinuity crossing it out at 5K than something lower. This means that there will be significantly more reflected sound in the tweeter range than just below it. The Harman white papers are interesting references. They claim smooth polar response is a good indicator of good sound. http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default
The good news is you shouldn't have any trouble finding a tweeter that will handle a 2500-3000 Hz XO as long as you keep it better than 2nd order. The Founteks have a minimum recommended XO of 2nd order/2500 hz. I plan to XO there using a 4th order LR.
Also, notice that the off axis response drops significantly well before 5KHz - this is the "beaming" effect of a 6.5" driver. Your polar response will have a larger discontinuity crossing it out at 5K than something lower. This means that there will be significantly more reflected sound in the tweeter range than just below it. The Harman white papers are interesting references. They claim smooth polar response is a good indicator of good sound. http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default
The good news is you shouldn't have any trouble finding a tweeter that will handle a 2500-3000 Hz XO as long as you keep it better than 2nd order. The Founteks have a minimum recommended XO of 2nd order/2500 hz. I plan to XO there using a 4th order LR.
do any of you ppl know any good sites on the net besides partsexpress and maddisound that sells drivers? i've been google'n for hours and could not find much in the way of driver retailers.
the phl's look nice... i would like to here an example, who uses them in there system designs other than diy?
BobEllis- your most likely right about streaching the vifa to 5k, i was talking to a friend of mine and he said when he built his speakers using the unsheilded vifa, that he had to rework his x-over to drop the role-off to around 3200Hz, he said they sound better too. thanx
the phl's look nice... i would like to here an example, who uses them in there system designs other than diy?
BobEllis- your most likely right about streaching the vifa to 5k, i was talking to a friend of mine and he said when he built his speakers using the unsheilded vifa, that he had to rework his x-over to drop the role-off to around 3200Hz, he said they sound better too. thanx
zalytron, meniscusaudio, northcreek, orcadesign, speakercity, adireaudio and others. apexjr also has some drivers in his surplus collection. I've done most of my speaker business with zalytron, Elliot is a decent guy who is helpful when I was a newbie.
also have a look here: http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-f.php3#DISTRIBUTORS lots of good info on the site as well
also have a look here: http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-f.php3#DISTRIBUTORS lots of good info on the site as well
Regarding the Ribbon and planar tweeters. I too had used good silk domes for a decade, and when Fountek JP3 came along, I got the urge for a ribbon. After hearing a competent design by Selah Audio using it, I was not that impressed. It sounded different, but not so significantly for me to buy a pair of them and use them
The same thing happened after hearing a speaker that used the BG NEO3 planar tweeter. It's different than a dome, but subtly so.
Of course, other folks are more favorably impressed by them. But I think it's telling that both Siegfried Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/)and John Kreskovsky (http://www.musicanddesign.com/)chose a dome tweeter for their most ambitious designs.
The same thing happened after hearing a speaker that used the BG NEO3 planar tweeter. It's different than a dome, but subtly so.
Of course, other folks are more favorably impressed by them. But I think it's telling that both Siegfried Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/)and John Kreskovsky (http://www.musicanddesign.com/)chose a dome tweeter for their most ambitious designs.
If you need a mid, the Vifa P13 would be better than the P17WJ.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html
And a PHL mid would push the efficiency of the system up and be more adequate for a ribbon (95dB/w)
F
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html
And a PHL mid would push the efficiency of the system up and be more adequate for a ribbon (95dB/w)
F
hello all,
ive been doing some looking around on the net for info on planer tweeters, looking at examples and such. from what it looks like, planers are best used in 3-way configurations so one could use a smaller more suitable mid, and then match it to a woofer like a 8" or a 10". like you ppl were saying, a more powerful mid is needed. so i think im going to go with a 1" silk dome for my project, BUT, i do now have a few ideas for some natty looking 3-way designs. i have some sketches down for now.
i was wondering, back in 2000, i picked up a pair of "optimus" pro-x88av 2-ways for surround speakers in my first apartment, now they sit next to my computer hooked up to my old pioneer 5.1 ready receiver for the pc... i was wondering, the tweeter element in them, would that be a form of planer? as with the emit tweeter in my infinity cs3008 3-ways (that is what ive heard)? if so then i have my examples right here. any more input would be great, im just trying to collect as much info as possible so i could make the best decision right now... thanx
oh and i almost forgot, thanx for all the info on driver retailers, that was great...
ive been doing some looking around on the net for info on planer tweeters, looking at examples and such. from what it looks like, planers are best used in 3-way configurations so one could use a smaller more suitable mid, and then match it to a woofer like a 8" or a 10". like you ppl were saying, a more powerful mid is needed. so i think im going to go with a 1" silk dome for my project, BUT, i do now have a few ideas for some natty looking 3-way designs. i have some sketches down for now.
i was wondering, back in 2000, i picked up a pair of "optimus" pro-x88av 2-ways for surround speakers in my first apartment, now they sit next to my computer hooked up to my old pioneer 5.1 ready receiver for the pc... i was wondering, the tweeter element in them, would that be a form of planer? as with the emit tweeter in my infinity cs3008 3-ways (that is what ive heard)? if so then i have my examples right here. any more input would be great, im just trying to collect as much info as possible so i could make the best decision right now... thanx
oh and i almost forgot, thanx for all the info on driver retailers, that was great...
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