To make work/ better this hybrid sound?
I was just about to go down the serious pro-driver dipole route. Last Christmas hearing some horns
with effortless dynamics, I’m now about to make my first foray into a horn system.
Due to already owning &/ or hearing a number of good drivers, the project has evolved into:
< 240 Hz: Peerless XLSs (already had these) in Linkwitz H frame dipoles, probably driven by 160 w Hypex Modules.
(If needed two H frames a side)
240 – c. 1000 Hz: JBL 2202Hs: 12” 100 dB in CLS 180 Hz flares (80 * 40). (Already have the drivers & flares). Driven by either tubes (300B?) or Mini Alephs (10 w)?
c. 1000 – c. 3000 Hz: PHL 1060s: 6.5” 100 dB, in either sealed boxes or home made 80 * 40 constant directivity flares.
> c. 3000 Hz: Aurum Cantus G1s: 100 dB ribbons. (Already had these) May be able to do a waveguide on these(?).
The perfect upper range choice may appear to be a TAD TD2001
, but eg Stella and Magnetar prefer the ESg1.
A horn buff mate (who hasn’t heard a hybrid like this ~ who has?) thinks it must be all horn, biggest concern being the different pattern of the ribbon. Listening distance will be c. 4.5m (15 feet), which will reduce the effect of the beaming.
I’m going to use both Hornresp & SoundEasy to help.
XOs to be determined, but most likely:
XLS – JBL & JBL – PHL: active; and PHL – ribbons passive.
That would lend it to giving the last two drivers either a more powerful but tubey sounding SS amp (eg I have some high bias Musical Fidelity 50 w monoblocks), or say a PP EL34. I know opinions differ on the need to use the same amp across the range.
I’m open to class A (like the about close Pass Labs forum offer), eg a mini Aleph on the JBLs (say 105 db in flares), and an Aleph 30 on the PHLs & ribbons?
Will it work? What’s wrong?
How can it be better? 
Thanks
I was just about to go down the serious pro-driver dipole route. Last Christmas hearing some horns
with effortless dynamics, I’m now about to make my first foray into a horn system. Due to already owning &/ or hearing a number of good drivers, the project has evolved into:
< 240 Hz: Peerless XLSs (already had these) in Linkwitz H frame dipoles, probably driven by 160 w Hypex Modules.
(If needed two H frames a side)
240 – c. 1000 Hz: JBL 2202Hs: 12” 100 dB in CLS 180 Hz flares (80 * 40). (Already have the drivers & flares). Driven by either tubes (300B?) or Mini Alephs (10 w)?
c. 1000 – c. 3000 Hz: PHL 1060s: 6.5” 100 dB, in either sealed boxes or home made 80 * 40 constant directivity flares.
> c. 3000 Hz: Aurum Cantus G1s: 100 dB ribbons. (Already had these) May be able to do a waveguide on these(?).
The perfect upper range choice may appear to be a TAD TD2001
, but eg Stella and Magnetar prefer the ESg1.A horn buff mate (who hasn’t heard a hybrid like this ~ who has?) thinks it must be all horn, biggest concern being the different pattern of the ribbon. Listening distance will be c. 4.5m (15 feet), which will reduce the effect of the beaming.
I’m going to use both Hornresp & SoundEasy to help.
XOs to be determined, but most likely:
XLS – JBL & JBL – PHL: active; and PHL – ribbons passive.
That would lend it to giving the last two drivers either a more powerful but tubey sounding SS amp (eg I have some high bias Musical Fidelity 50 w monoblocks), or say a PP EL34. I know opinions differ on the need to use the same amp across the range.
I’m open to class A (like the about close Pass Labs forum offer), eg a mini Aleph on the JBLs (say 105 db in flares), and an Aleph 30 on the PHLs & ribbons?
Will it work? What’s wrong?
How can it be better? Thanks
Who knows about dispersion patterns?
Yes, different radiation patterns is maybe my biggest concern.
The dipoles may be 100*100 ?? (less than conventional boxes would be),
the horns 80*40,
the 6.5 inch PHLs (if sealed & higher powered amp) 90*90??, if in a CD can be 80*40,
the ribbon 150*30?
I’m not interested in stereo image – will this matter?
Cheers
Yes, different radiation patterns is maybe my biggest concern.
The dipoles may be 100*100 ?? (less than conventional boxes would be),
the horns 80*40,
the 6.5 inch PHLs (if sealed & higher powered amp) 90*90??, if in a CD can be 80*40,
the ribbon 150*30?
I’m not interested in stereo image – will this matter?
Cheers
Thanks SY
People’s sensitivity to this must vary.
John Hancock uses dipole bass below 300 Hz, and Unity Hons above. I think someone else does similar; and I once had dipole > 850? Hz, monopole below (in Apogee hybrid ribbons) without that problem (there were others).
(Presumably you had them close or time aligned in the XO) so the problem was the reverberant vs direct sound.
Any opinions or how to get most continuity of amps?
How about 845 SEs for both the JBLs, and the upper range.
I’m going to China next month, where ‘Yarland’ (made in Shanghai) 845 SEs can be had for very low prices, with probably average parts quality. Later could be upgraded as money permits.
But what safety precautions would be necessary with a low $
high volts (1100?) amp? 
Cheers
People’s sensitivity to this must vary.
John Hancock uses dipole bass below 300 Hz, and Unity Hons above. I think someone else does similar; and I once had dipole > 850? Hz, monopole below (in Apogee hybrid ribbons) without that problem (there were others).
(Presumably you had them close or time aligned in the XO) so the problem was the reverberant vs direct sound.
Any opinions or how to get most continuity of amps?
How about 845 SEs for both the JBLs, and the upper range.
I’m going to China next month, where ‘Yarland’ (made in Shanghai) 845 SEs can be had for very low prices, with probably average parts quality. Later could be upgraded as money permits.
But what safety precautions would be necessary with a low $
high volts (1100?) amp? Cheers
I find the Karlson Klam loaded with a good 15" woofer to 250 Hz, open baffle 10 to 1.3 khz, and the big heils 1.3k up with active 4th order crossovers as good as any horn system I've had in dynamics yet has better transient response, coherency, soundstaging, tone and room exceptance than a fully horn loaded system or hybrid. Plus it costs a heck of a lot less and is easier to to integrate.
rick57 said:Magnetar
What drivers are you using in the Karlson Klam (you’ve described the ;box; before), and esp. the open baffle 250 Hz to 1.3 khz??
I'm torn between an old pair of Jensen 10" flexair alnico's and some custom field coil 10's with flexair surrounds and a double spider. The field coils are really sensitive but I'm having a problem putting more than 10-20 watts into them crossed over below 300 cycles. Seem to be too much trouble for a small gain in sensitivity -
The Klams currently have Altec 921's in them. The box(back chamber) is sealed and I'm using a 3rd order electronic high pass on them with the horns subs doing the deep bass duties 50 down. Same thing here - My custom 15" field coils sound a bit better (relaxed yet 'fast' to a certain point) but can't handle the heavy stuff like the Altecs. Seems the Altecs are much more practicle unless you are one of these guys that swears by 3 watt SET amps to drive the bass!
Seems a 15 with a QTS between .2 and .3 works the best. FS 30-40 cycles - XMAX doesn't mean too much here if the sensitivity is high (97 db+) - there really isn't much movement with the KK because of the damping of both sides of the cone. I do use a high pass on mine because I use a ballsy 300 WPC amp on them and occasionally use it all. The little 2" voice coil in the field coils don't like all that power and sound soft - like the Altec 515, TAD 1601, JBL D130, ect.. where the Altec 921's turn it into hard hitting low compression 'shock wave' bass transients.
The Altec 921-8A -
Xmax
(inch)
.05
Re (ohms)
5.1
Vd
(cu. in.)
6.4
Fs
(Hz)
34.1
Vas
(cu. ft.)
10.6
Ref
(%)
4.0
Qts
.26
Qms
2.24
Qes
.29
Vid
.20
The Altec 921-8A -
Xmax
(inch)
.05
Re (ohms)
5.1
Vd
(cu. in.)
6.4
Fs
(Hz)
34.1
Vas
(cu. ft.)
10.6
Ref
(%)
4.0
Qts
.26
Qms
2.24
Qes
.29
Vid
.20
rick57 said:
The Xmax stated in the specs is kinda funny = these actually have a decent throw on them- VAS is cubic feet.
Like GM says there are quite a few prosound 15's that are like the 921. I had the PHL 15's and they did well in the Klams and imagine the Eminence he mentioned would be great. The older alnico altec/jbl's sound compressed in the Klams IMO.
I normally tune the back chamber with a port to around 10 cycles above the driver fs and they go down 35 hz or so solid and don't bottom out - although since I'm using subs below these I sealed up the ports and prefer it over the vent. They don't go as low but are more articulate in the bass this way.
If I understand correctly 0.2-0.3 is often a good Qts range for horn-loading(?).
It looks like the price of the Magnums recently rose $US 105 : (
Another currently available modest $ driver that might perform similar to the Altec 921: the P.Audio SN-15 MB.
Altec 921s SN-15 MB Magnum 15HO
Xmax (inch) .05 .14 .19
Re (ohms) 5.1 5.2 6.3
Fs (Hz) 34 50 33
Vas (cu. ft.) 10.6 7 8.5
Qts 0.26 0.25 0.27
Qms 2.24 4.0 7.5
Qes 0.29 0.15 .28
Vc (Inches) ? 3 4
Sensitivity 1w@ m 97 ? 100 95.5
Power Rating: ? 300 650
$US 190 275
What do you think?
The lower Fs of the Magnum suggests it goes about 0.5 octave lower; the lower coil inductance of the P.Audio suggests it can be crossed higher up.
It looks like the price of the Magnums recently rose $US 105 : (
Another currently available modest $ driver that might perform similar to the Altec 921: the P.Audio SN-15 MB.
Altec 921s SN-15 MB Magnum 15HO
Xmax (inch) .05 .14 .19
Re (ohms) 5.1 5.2 6.3
Fs (Hz) 34 50 33
Vas (cu. ft.) 10.6 7 8.5
Qts 0.26 0.25 0.27
Qms 2.24 4.0 7.5
Qes 0.29 0.15 .28
Vc (Inches) ? 3 4
Sensitivity 1w@ m 97 ? 100 95.5
Power Rating: ? 300 650
$US 190 275
What do you think?
The lower Fs of the Magnum suggests it goes about 0.5 octave lower; the lower coil inductance of the P.Audio suggests it can be crossed higher up.
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