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Old 27th March 2005, 06:02 PM   #31
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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I've thought about this a bit too. It shouldn't be that difficult to make a bose type system that sounds much better. My thought was to use the FF85K for satellites. I get a .5l sealed box with a Qtc of .83 and an F6 (for even order crossover) of 150hz.

I'd be inclined to go with a sealed box bass module, using something like a seas metal cone woofer, or focal or eton sandwich cone. I'd also use a 4th order active crossover at 150-175 or so, and just not worry about it. This is still much lower than bo$e uses.

Alternatively, some of the aurasound FR drivers will go much lower, but you do pay a big price in efficiency.
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Old 27th March 2005, 06:10 PM   #32
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I think you could beat Bose at their own game. Take a look at the AuraSound NS3-193-8A 3" (www.aurasound.com) (www.madisound.com to buy $20).

It has good top end, so the addition of a tweeter would be your choice. I don't know how comfortable you are with electronics. However, if you are fairly comfortable, a Linkwitz transform circuit with a small speaker might be the way to go.

I modeled the NS3-193-8A in a 3" cube (I.D.) because the cutout hole size is 3". It resulted in a -3 around 118 Hz and a Q of 1.222. Not ideal. However, a Linkwitz circuit could make this easily into a 100 Hz -3 and Q of 0.8 (Q of 0.71 not possible in this situation). With a 50 WPC amp, you could get about 90 dB output of the speaker without exceeding the NS3-193-8A's 5mm xmax at 20 Hz and up.

Of course, it's your choice on if you want to use a high-excursion driver to reproduce high notes, but either way it'll be better than the Bose junk IMO.

Reece
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Old 27th March 2005, 06:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg B
Alternatively, some of the aurasound FR drivers will go much lower, but you do pay a big price in efficiency.

Ah, you just beat me to it!!



Reece
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Old 27th March 2005, 06:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zaph
Interesting. I looked at this thread last night before bed and it had one reply. Woke up this morning to find a riot.

There are many things wrong with Bose systems, the worst thing being their size. When your primary design objective is the keep the overall size very small, you've already accepted a major compromise that will drag the sound quality down to mediocrity. If you want to "beat" Bose, you need to get out of the market where sound quality doesn't matter.

Blunderman posted a link to my Hi-Vi B3S project. That represents pretty much the smallest I would make a speaker that still allows it to have low enough bass response to properly cross over to a sub without localization. Those are just over .1 cu ft.

In the case of Bose cubes, they are .02 cu ft, which when combined with their high Qts high Fs drivers, results in lower midrange peaking and a massive dip in the midbass response where the satellites have no output. There are two routes Bose could have taken: 1) cross the sub over low enough to not cause localization but then have a massive midbass dip in response, or 2) they could cross over higher and have too much midbass coming out of the sub. They chose #1. Both options suck.

The speaker shown below is 5" wide and 9" tall. The woofer is 3". I supply crossover options for those who wish to use these in an "architectual audio" environment. This is pretty much the smallest I can make a speaker and have it not exhibit Bose sound quality.

Click the image to open in full size.

I'd recommend against Fostex drivers for this application. They are the most efficient 3" drivers of the bunch, but that efficiency gets you nothing when you run out of Xmax with 1/2 watt input. with 3" single drivers, efficiency means nothing but overall output and power handling means everything.

I built these and love em. although they are taken apart right now for painting...i do love em...i used the round version of the woofer because PE was out of the square version...
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Old 27th March 2005, 06:56 PM   #35
SSassen is offline SSassen  Netherlands
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Having 'refurbished' a Bose Acoustimess system quite some time ago I'm with Zaph on this one. I used the drivers he mentioned and replaced the woofers in the sub with some nice, but cheap, stiff glassfiber cones. Ran some simulations in BassBox Pro and Speaker Workshop and this Bose system suddenly play a whole different tune. Spent about $150 in total and the owner was amazed, I was too, as he actually noticed the improvement without me having to point out the differences.

I'd go with Zaph's design, build 5 of them for a 5.1 and add a cheap subwoofer, a single 10" woofer in a properly calculated bassreflex enclosure will do fine. Or go for a 2.1, with two of them and the subwoofer. Can't go wrong really, it is close to being respectable as a true hometheatre setup.

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Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:39 PM   #36
indoubt is offline indoubt  Netherlands
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Still no actual constrain on the size from the topic starter.

If you can go 2,5 liters I think you can build very nice little speakers.

Think of Monacor SPH100KEP and alike with a small tweeter like the Seas KT27F in a 2,5L enclosure.

For a small sub you could look at the tangband w8-740C wich will fit in a very small BR enclosure if 40Hz is enough (10 Liters Fb 38Hz, F3 40Hz)

The speakers in my avatar are 5 liters and based on the peerless HDS134. Recently they introduced the HDS106 wich I believe will fit in 3 liters BR and could make a stunning little loudspeaker combined with the 19mm ringradiator from Vifa.
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:51 PM   #37
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Like mentioned ealier, go with an aperiodic box design. My aperiodic surrounds are sing the TB W3 871 because I got them for free, but I'm sure with some Hi Vi's they can only sound better.
Here is my thread about my $13 surrounds. The surrounds sound great, not very efficient though.

With a sub you could have a great system. I think that the Hi Vi D10.8 could be a great sub project, only $100 from PE and you can buy all you B3Ns from there too. Or you can try something similar to TL Extrmis design that has a new thread. The Extremis is even more like the Bose system, small woofer, but with the extremis you can go much lower.

Also what about in-wall speakers?

Josh
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:59 PM   #38
flaevor is offline flaevor  United States
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I'm not an experienced speaker designer, but I am married and think maybe I'd approach this a little differently. First, would your wife appreciate the effort you put into building them let alone the increased quality? If so build 'em. If not buy her the Bose, if that's what it is, that she wants. I have made the mistake of buying what I knew to be better when my wife wanted something else.


If you buy the Bose just make sure you repent and offer a sacrifice to the Audio gods.
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Old 27th March 2005, 09:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by kelticwizard
Dave:

With all respect, "a little bit bigger than the picture, assuming an average size hand", doesn't quite narrow it down, sizewise.

What I am really driving at is: can we make it big enough to include a 4" driver? There are some real good ones out there.

How does this sound for a box size, outside dimensions: 4.5" front, 4" deep, 6" high?

This will be bigger than the Bose, but still pretty small, and allows any number of 4" drivers into the picture.

Please let us know if that is an acceptable size right from the beginning. I think we can all use a concrete size goal. I've looked and looked, but I can't seem to locate any driver manufacturer who gives the Vas spec in hand size.
I initiated the process of pinning her down on the size thing today.

Me: "How large a box could you consider?"

She: "Well, I really like those little cubes."

Me: "Would something a little larger be okay?"

She: "Did you know that the strawberries are already in the stores? They are beautiful."

These things take time. Perhaps we should put the project on hold until I can develop a proper marketing requirements document and get it signed off.
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Old 27th March 2005, 09:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paradise_Ice
Whats your budget Dave?

The managers are very expensive units and vey fussy about amplification.

I dont want to bash any company but the domestic Bose are not made for high fidelity sound reproduction.

Have you asked your partner why she wants Bose?
Budget. Maybe $600 US total.

Why Bose? She likes those cute little cubes.
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