I’m sick of missing dialogue in films & TV - I want to build the best not wildly expensive centre speaker I can for *intelligibility of voice.
(I already have AC ribbons for the top end, and Peerless XLS for the bass. I can do the L & R later to match).
So far my probable decision is that a metal cone will be clearest; I’ll deal with break-ups in the XO. I have test equipment etc.
It’ll likely be an active 3 way. Shielding is preferable but not essential (if needed, I believe it’s not that hard to do bucking magnets).
I won’t use MTM because of the more restricted dispersion pattern. Good off axis up to at least 3 kHz is very important. I considered a dipole, but rejected that due to too big and too much directivity.
The starting points for XOs are 150 & 3000+ Hz.
So, would you recommend:
- the Jordan JX92 or CSS WR125 (planet10 favourites). The CSS seems better value - bass and high end “surprising”, but how good is the midrange?
- the Manger, often used I believe in German broadcasting studios. (Probably only worth it if cost is no object). Although “full range”, its directivity narrows up high, so may need a tweeter for good off-axis coverage.
- a Lowther, maybe from the better value DX series.
- a Seas Excel W18E-001 (E0018) or W18EX-001 (E0017) magnesium cone (smaller versions of Linkwitz favourites).
- an Audax HDA?
- one of the Fostex – eg FE127E, FF165K or FE167E (a Timn8ter favourite)?
- maybe a Focal Audiom 6WM (mixed reports, some excellent)
or something else??
Cheers
(I already have AC ribbons for the top end, and Peerless XLS for the bass. I can do the L & R later to match).
So far my probable decision is that a metal cone will be clearest; I’ll deal with break-ups in the XO. I have test equipment etc.
It’ll likely be an active 3 way. Shielding is preferable but not essential (if needed, I believe it’s not that hard to do bucking magnets).
I won’t use MTM because of the more restricted dispersion pattern. Good off axis up to at least 3 kHz is very important. I considered a dipole, but rejected that due to too big and too much directivity.
The starting points for XOs are 150 & 3000+ Hz.
So, would you recommend:
- the Jordan JX92 or CSS WR125 (planet10 favourites). The CSS seems better value - bass and high end “surprising”, but how good is the midrange?
- the Manger, often used I believe in German broadcasting studios. (Probably only worth it if cost is no object). Although “full range”, its directivity narrows up high, so may need a tweeter for good off-axis coverage.
- a Lowther, maybe from the better value DX series.
- a Seas Excel W18E-001 (E0018) or W18EX-001 (E0017) magnesium cone (smaller versions of Linkwitz favourites).
- an Audax HDA?
- one of the Fostex – eg FE127E, FF165K or FE167E (a Timn8ter favourite)?
- maybe a Focal Audiom 6WM (mixed reports, some excellent)
or something else??
Cheers
You can even hear them breathe with a pair of these.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/rjakubin/hpnx0294.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/rjakubin/hpnx0294.jpg
I use the CSS WR125 full range as a center channel. Dialogue intelligibility is as good as I've ever heard (not that I've heard all that much). Most of all, the dynamics of the human voice really come through, and I find that really helps make the voices sound more lifelike than other speakers I've heard. I'm sure the full range, point source thing is helping as well.
One thing to consider though, is the low efficiency, which may be a problem unless you're going active on the crossoveers.
One thing to consider though, is the low efficiency, which may be a problem unless you're going active on the crossoveers.
454, I believe they give good dispersion within the figure 8 zone, but less outside it.
RJ, I’m sure they could be good, but line arrays are too big.
Mobo, I’ve just emailed CS on whether the CSS WR125 or Jordan 92 (they sell both) would be better. I imagine it'll be close.
(Yes I’m going active on the crossovers, so their low efficiency is not a problem).
Cheers
RJ, I’m sure they could be good, but line arrays are too big.
Mobo, I’ve just emailed CS on whether the CSS WR125 or Jordan 92 (they sell both) would be better. I imagine it'll be close.
(Yes I’m going active on the crossovers, so their low efficiency is not a problem).
Cheers
I had extreme problems understanding actors when they just spoke above a whisper. Case in point, Sam Waterston on Law&Order.
I would have to crank up the volume just to barely hear what he was saying.
Now it's no problem at all. The volume is turned down to decent levels and everything is legible, even when they whisper. What amazed me the most was how natural the actor's voice became. Almost as if they were in the room. What gives it away is the miking techniques.
Good Luck on your quest for clarity.
I would have to crank up the volume just to barely hear what he was saying.
Now it's no problem at all. The volume is turned down to decent levels and everything is legible, even when they whisper. What amazed me the most was how natural the actor's voice became. Almost as if they were in the room. What gives it away is the miking techniques.
Good Luck on your quest for clarity.
WRT directionality, wide dispersion actually works against you AFA intelligibility. This is pro sound 101. So does a reverberant environment, and background noise. Good phase matching is important as well. Movie theaters use horns in a well treated room for a reason.
Which AC ribbon? I found my AC G3 matched best with unglamorous Focal coated paper drivers. Isn't the 6WM the one with the moving dustcap phase plug. That idea frankly scares me. I really was impressed by the 10W6452 W woofer though.
Anyway, I'm recommending the Focal 7C. I think zalytron still has them.
The seas excel drivers are awfully nice, and I'd imagine that they'd work OK too. Crossover design will be a @^$~!. They will need some work beyond generic 4th LR opamp types. I've used the fostex FE164 and FF125 as mids too. The FF is superior as far as clarity. The FF series are horn drivers though, and would require compensation for the rising response.
Anyway, a number of approaches/drivers could work. The implementation is what matters.
GB
Which AC ribbon? I found my AC G3 matched best with unglamorous Focal coated paper drivers. Isn't the 6WM the one with the moving dustcap phase plug. That idea frankly scares me. I really was impressed by the 10W6452 W woofer though.
Anyway, I'm recommending the Focal 7C. I think zalytron still has them.
The seas excel drivers are awfully nice, and I'd imagine that they'd work OK too. Crossover design will be a @^$~!. They will need some work beyond generic 4th LR opamp types. I've used the fostex FE164 and FF125 as mids too. The FF is superior as far as clarity. The FF series are horn drivers though, and would require compensation for the rising response.
Anyway, a number of approaches/drivers could work. The implementation is what matters.
GB
Greg B
I know wide dispersion can bounce off the walls, and the reflections smear the original signal. We have an open setting, with people in an 80 degree arc from the TV and centre speaker spot (in a corner). Only sound radiated beyond 90 degrees would be a first reflection.
So I was aiming for towards equal dispersion over 80 degrees. I probably won’t be able to get that high, but closer but would better than less.
There’s no Focal 7C now. At Zalytron there’s:
7K 4412 Polykevlar midbass
7 K 6411 Polykevlar high efficiency midrange
7 V 4212DB7" Polyglass midbass dual v.c
7 W 4411 W-coned midbass
So dispersion aside, what Focal material is best for voice?
Cheers
I know wide dispersion can bounce off the walls, and the reflections smear the original signal. We have an open setting, with people in an 80 degree arc from the TV and centre speaker spot (in a corner). Only sound radiated beyond 90 degrees would be a first reflection.
So I was aiming for towards equal dispersion over 80 degrees. I probably won’t be able to get that high, but closer but would better than less.
There’s no Focal 7C now. At Zalytron there’s:
7K 4412 Polykevlar midbass
7 K 6411 Polykevlar high efficiency midrange
7 V 4212DB7" Polyglass midbass dual v.c
7 W 4411 W-coned midbass
So dispersion aside, what Focal material is best for voice?
Cheers
Oh, they are listed under "Access". Dumb name. These are discontinued, but I think they still have them. The quality is just as good as focal's 'normal' line, they just have latex coated paper cones instead of high tech trendy materials. The impulse response on many of the models is among the best I've seen. (and they sounded like it)
Couldn't tell you. I haven't heard the focal kevlars for years. The W cone drivers I tried were awfully nice, and were perfect up to 700hz where I crossed them to mids. I'd imagine any would be good.
I still think crossover and system design is going to be the most important thing. All of these drivers are very good.
GB
Bill
Sure, a good 2 channel stereo system and no center channel can have clear dialog.
At present mine is a pair of $US 200 Mission speakers – not at all bad, but I want something better.
I could make a better 2 channel system, but I don’t use it for music, and I’d rather one excellent channel to two very good ones.
Do you recommend any drivers?
Sure, a good 2 channel stereo system and no center channel can have clear dialog.
At present mine is a pair of $US 200 Mission speakers – not at all bad, but I want something better.
I could make a better 2 channel system, but I don’t use it for music, and I’d rather one excellent channel to two very good ones.
Do you recommend any drivers?
I don't doubt that crossover and system design is most important, and several drivers are very good. I want to start by picking the best of those drivers, then work on the XO etc.
I've just read eg that while the CSS WR125 has basically a flat response over this passband, the Jordan deliberately has a rising response above 2 kHz, to give flatter off axis response.
So in the direction I was heading, the Jordan would on that count be a little better.
But the main question is - which driver might be more articulated/ detailed over 140 Hz - 2 kHz??
Who's heard both?
I've just read eg that while the CSS WR125 has basically a flat response over this passband, the Jordan deliberately has a rising response above 2 kHz, to give flatter off axis response.
So in the direction I was heading, the Jordan would on that count be a little better.
But the main question is - which driver might be more articulated/ detailed over 140 Hz - 2 kHz??
Who's heard both?
rick
Well true, I wouldn't run it much below 200Hz ideally, but I don't think it would have any problems with vocal clarity. The main problem would be finding them, people that have them tend to want to keep them!
Of your selections so far, currently I would favour the Jordans, but I will have a think, see if anything else comes to mind.
Well true, I wouldn't run it much below 200Hz ideally, but I don't think it would have any problems with vocal clarity. The main problem would be finding them, people that have them tend to want to keep them!
Of your selections so far, currently I would favour the Jordans, but I will have a think, see if anything else comes to mind.
pinkmouse said:
Was thinking the same
My GF was playing around with my testing mic and preamp, playing through my prototype MTM using the MDT144's and I was amazed at how accurate they were for her voice. There wasn't any colouration at all (that I could detect).as a bonus they are shielded
Tony.
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