Best midrange for intelligibility of voice - Page 12 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th February 2005, 10:40 AM   #111
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Quote:
Originally posted by DanWiggins
Pan posted:


The only way to eliminate the effects of BL, Cms, and Le nonlinearities is to reduce excursion. These effects arise from motion of the driver, and a low pass filter will not significantly affect excursion. A high pass filter will, however.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
Yes, that´s why I (again) recommend to lowpass below the points that are acutally very high in distortion due to the amplification of the breakup. I don´t know if you understand what I desperately try to say here . Take a look at some stiff drivers and you´ll see peaks in the distortion curve at 1/2 and 1/3 of the major breakup. Of course since most only spec 2nd and 3rd harmonics one should not forget that higher order products from lower frecuencies also will coincide with the breakup and will be amplified by it. BUT these higher order harmonics will be of MUCH lower magnitude than the lower order products from the point closer up to the breakup, and therefore will be of less concern. Of course it will be a problem when pushing the driver very hard, which is foolish to do in a high performance system and therefore we dimension the system properly and use a highpass.

BUT a highpass will NOT reduce the peaks in distortion higher up closer to the major breakup, and therefore we need to reduce the output at those frequrncies in order not to excite the breakup.

Only way to reduce the distortion as you say, is to reduce excursion, but if you do not do that by lowpassing the driver the only way would be to turn down the volume... not a good solution to deal with distoriton IMO . Also within the x-max of the driver the relationship between distortion and excursion is not as easy and clear as it may seem.

Take a look at the W22 that SL use in Orion, it has a peak of 1.5% of so 3rd harmonics at 1.5k due to the fact that this harmonic coincide with the major breakup at 4.5k... of course there is only one way to deal with this and it is to lowpass the driver since no highpass in the world will affect the driver in that range.

All drivers has a optimum range to be used in, in that range a stiff driver (W22) will perform better than a soft driver. Between 100Hz and 1k I have still not seen a driver to match the low distortion of W22 for example.

Did I do better at explaining myself now?



/Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 12:02 PM   #112
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dry ol Melbourne Australia
Peter

You are commendably patient.
I am no techie (would that I were a little more so), but I see your point, and feel that the real skill and real appeal of particularly *DIY speaker design is matching the drivers and implementation to the exact requirement, including optimum range.

The commercial designer should produce the design that will produce the best number of sales in a target market, for the maximum profit. Nothing wrong with that.

But the DIYer knows what music they listen to, the room and desired SPL, the amp, etc and can optimise the speaker etc to that requirement. So to return to your point, knowing the exact strengths of drivers is part of why we’re here.


And on that note, I think the Seas mag cones are in the highest brackets for music, where much of the energy is below 1000 Hz.

But (re-reading the intelligibility stuff) while the centre of voice energy is also below 1000 Hz, unless the person is shouting; the critical area for intelligibility is where the consonants are, c. 1500 – 3000.


I today learnt of another set of contenders for the ultimate centre speaker (hopefully there won’t be many more ): the Seas coaxial drivers.

Is coaxial a good thing? Coincidence is good, yes; and directivity in the crossover frequency region is pretty good . .

The smallest, the 4.5 inch www.madisound.com/seas/h487.pdf can be crossed between 3 – 4 kHz, but the cone is polypropylene.
The larger ones eg newer 6.5" T18RE/XTVFC, discussed here www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-46605.html have an XP cone, whatever that is (?), but are crossed between 2 – 3 kHz.

Anyone heard any of these?
Dan, you may want to be devil’s advocate, vs full range like the CSS.

Cheers
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 12:22 PM   #113
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Rick,

you may check out some info on the Revolution speaker from Finish company Gradient. They use a fiberglass coax from Seas in an acoustic resistance cabinet which gives a very good cardioid polarpattern. This is matched to dual dipole 12" Peerless below.
They also use this driver in other speaekrs.

I believe this would be a very good solution for a HT speaker and many do use this approach.

www.gradient.fi

/Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 12:38 PM   #114
diyAudio Moderator
 
pinkmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chatham, England
Just as a thought...

Why don't you just get a speaker you know and like, and just build a little switchable parametric with, say 3 db boost between 1200 and 1500Hz?
__________________
Rick: Oh Cliff / Sometimes it must be difficult not to feel as if / You really are a cliff / when fascists keep trying to push you over it! / Are they the lemmings / Or are you, Cliff? / Or are you Cliff?
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 12:52 PM   #115
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
EQ has been suggested by several now to increase the intelligibifgklgi... of the driver but whatabout production/mixing/mastering?

Normally the engineers have manipulated the mix to give as good and clear result as posible, further manipulating the response in the reproduction chain only increase the risk of listening fatigue due to harsh sound... especially if this approach is used with drivers of "less" quality which will have higher distortion.

Just my thought

/Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 01:06 PM   #116
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dry ol Melbourne Australia
Pan

(You seem to spend as much time here as I do)

Gradient are doing interesting things. As a SL Phoenix builder, I’d love to hear the part cardioid Gradient Revolution.

The Revolution is way beyond my budget, but I see the fibreglass Seas are sold at www.diyparadiso.com/price/stock-speakers.htm for sensible prices.

I wonder how the fibreglass cones would compare with the Seas XP (?) or paper CSS.

Cheers
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 01:09 PM   #117
diyAudio Moderator
 
pinkmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chatham, England
Pan

Having mixed both live and recorded sound, I know that you can actually get a way with a lot of EQ on human voice without causing that sort of problem. Music however, is a different kettle of fish.
__________________
Rick: Oh Cliff / Sometimes it must be difficult not to feel as if / You really are a cliff / when fascists keep trying to push you over it! / Are they the lemmings / Or are you, Cliff? / Or are you Cliff?
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 01:23 PM   #118
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: dry ol Melbourne Australia
> Normally the engineers have manipulated the mix to give as good and clear result as possible, further manipulating the response in the reproduction chain only increase the risk of listening fatigue

Normally? Nice if this were so. Often perhaps?

Pinkmouse
(Sorry, I missed your posts for two ticks).
I think switchable/ adjustable EQ is a very good idea. I would have thought the range to boost for speech clarity would be 1500-2500 Hz, but you’ve done this - not that high is better?

To have the optimum driver in the first place is IMO even more important. But both is better.

Cheers
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 01:38 PM   #119
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Quote:
Originally posted by pinkmouse
Pan

Having mixed both live and recorded sound, I know that you can actually get a way with a lot of EQ on human voice without causing that sort of problem. Music however, is a different kettle of fish.


You got some points there and yes, I was more music oriented when I wrote that.

That said I am personally senstive to EQ on voices and only when applied with a lot of care think it´s ok. I have a pair of flat microphones (Earthworks QTC1) that captures thing as it is and it sounds best and most natural to me. Of course in a mix the situation becomes different than with solo or simple material.

/Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2005, 01:57 PM   #120
Hennie is offline Hennie  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pretoria
Here is a paper cone that does well in terms of distortion (100 to 1kHz):

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2012h.pdf

The distortion graphs were taken at > 105 db(30W), so we cannot compare them directly to the Seas W22 Magnesium. I just wonder what the Seas would look like at similar SPL.

It probably tells us that cone material is a part of the equation and that motor distortion should also be kept in mind. And then there's thermal compression...Of course energy storage is also an issue and the Seas may very well be much better in this respect.

Subjectively, a big high efficiency paper mid like this sounds less strained to me when hitting peaks on music with a wide dynamic range, like some symphonic works.

Maybe Dan Wiggins can step in and comment.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single Voice Coil Vs Double Voice Coil Subwoofer Workhorse Car Audio 6 12th April 2007 06:36 AM
Driver (speaker) for voice intelligibility mefistofelez Multi-Way 3 16th August 2006 06:22 PM
Where can I buy mission 782 midrange voice coil ? ANALOG GUY Multi-Way 3 30th July 2006 10:17 PM
Want to buy mission 782 midrange voice coil ANALOG GUY Swap Meet 0 30th July 2006 05:40 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:58 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2