Fantastic! Does anyone know what else is inside the SonoTube tower, how the ports are configured, how the crossover can be backward-engineered (or if there's something better), and what modern drivers would be even better replacements for the Philips' of the original 1s and 1as?
If you missed my post elsewhere:
DCM Time Window 1a Speakers
Lost a perfect pair in a divorce (can you believe it?) 20 years ago. I would like to build something as close to the 1as that I can, using SonoTube, MDF, and a lot of advice. I've never found anything I like the sound of as well, and I'd like to come as close as I can to getting that sound again (though my 62-year-old ears probably can't tell the difference anymore.
Does anyone know the design specs, both mechanical and electrical, of these late, great speakers? I know the basic overall dimensions, and what brand drivers were used (2 Philips dome tweeters and 2 Philips 6 1/2 inch woofers w/rubber surrounds in a transmission line configuration), though not sure what model Philips drivers or what alternative modern drivers would be suitable. In fact, I'll be right up front and admit I don't really know what a transmission line speaker configuration would be. All I know is there was a 6-1/2 driver and a small dome tweeter on each angled face, and I loved the sound.
I'm a retired experimental machinist and NASA-certified electronics solderer, so I have the necessary building skills, but I know zip about speaker or crossover design.
Any and all help appreciated!
Peace
Bart Brown
If you missed my post elsewhere:
DCM Time Window 1a Speakers
Lost a perfect pair in a divorce (can you believe it?) 20 years ago. I would like to build something as close to the 1as that I can, using SonoTube, MDF, and a lot of advice. I've never found anything I like the sound of as well, and I'd like to come as close as I can to getting that sound again (though my 62-year-old ears probably can't tell the difference anymore.
Does anyone know the design specs, both mechanical and electrical, of these late, great speakers? I know the basic overall dimensions, and what brand drivers were used (2 Philips dome tweeters and 2 Philips 6 1/2 inch woofers w/rubber surrounds in a transmission line configuration), though not sure what model Philips drivers or what alternative modern drivers would be suitable. In fact, I'll be right up front and admit I don't really know what a transmission line speaker configuration would be. All I know is there was a 6-1/2 driver and a small dome tweeter on each angled face, and I loved the sound.
I'm a retired experimental machinist and NASA-certified electronics solderer, so I have the necessary building skills, but I know zip about speaker or crossover design.
Any and all help appreciated!
Peace
Bart Brown
Well here is a schematic that was kindly emailed to be from the current DCM organization.
Im not sure what the various components do, but it is certainly engineered for the original drivers so I doubt general replacements will function as well.
My thoughts were to try using some single drivers to see if the basic sound can be replicated.
amt
Im not sure what the various components do, but it is certainly engineered for the original drivers so I doubt general replacements will function as well.
My thoughts were to try using some single drivers to see if the basic sound can be replicated.
amt
Attachments
Thank you very much! From what I've read around the net, the Philips drivers used in the TW1As were not all that spectacular, even for their time. Since I don't know squat about how one determines which drivers to use for a given enclosure type, configuration, and size, I'm not yet able to make any intelligent choices; more than that, the Time Window 1s and 1As were obviously ported differently and there's no way I can tell what the internal baffling in the SonoTube or the configuration of the port or ports, round or square might have been.
Anyone have more information on the physical configuration of the port(s), baffles, or whatever else that might help out in (semi) replicating the TWs? Mine were defintely the original "1s," as I had no eyebrows over the woofers or sound deadening frame over the tweeters, and they had two round ports as shown, one on each face, and the nut inset in the center of the bottom walnut piece.
I miss my Time Windows (though by now they'd have to be completely gone through, I'm sure, IIRC, I bought them in 1980).
Thanks for sharing the pictures!
Bart
Anyone have more information on the physical configuration of the port(s), baffles, or whatever else that might help out in (semi) replicating the TWs? Mine were defintely the original "1s," as I had no eyebrows over the woofers or sound deadening frame over the tweeters, and they had two round ports as shown, one on each face, and the nut inset in the center of the bottom walnut piece.
I miss my Time Windows (though by now they'd have to be completely gone through, I'm sure, IIRC, I bought them in 1980).
Thanks for sharing the pictures!
Bart
There were some pretty well respected speakers using Philips drivers.
I used those drivers in the early/mid 70s. Drivers have improved since then.
dave
I still find them very musical although not as extended or accurate as a good modern tweeter.
As to trying to replicate a pair from scratch, I think the likelihood of success is quite slim. If you are inclined to throw some time and cash at it, you could start fresh and just use the basic design and go from there. Maybe get 2 pair of budget 2-way 6.5" kits or drivers and combine them in a MLTL. But its still a crap shoot.
But if you really like them, they are so inexpensive used you can pick up several pairs and do a restoration with extra parts for down the road. Im sure that in the end it would be far less expensive and time consuming with a known result. Not trying to be a downer but Ive already been down this road. Im always looking for another pair for parts for mine. I missed a pair not long ago and they were almost too good for a donor - asking was $100.
amt
I can appreciate the difficulty, and I DO intend to get "2 pair of budget 2-way 6.5" kits or drivers and combine them in a MLTL" (as soon as I understand what an MLTL is) and how one determines the design criteria, using a combination of backward engineering (like the crossover you and Planet10 so kindly provided), the known dimensions, configuration, and chamber volume of the originals, using modern driver selection criteria and hardware. I don't want to create an exact-down-to-the-antique-components replica; I just want something that sounds as good to me -- which, considering I haven't heard a pair in 20 years, is even more subjective than usual, and I don't think there are any audio components more subjective than speakers (except, perhaps, electric guitars, but I won't go down THAT thorny path here!). My son-in-law had a pair of Time Frames, driven by some Conrad-Johnson all-tubes, all-the-time pre-amp and amp, and I didn't like the sound of them at all. One of my good friends has a pair 7-foot (or so it seems) late-70s Magneplanars driven by I'm not sure what tube pre-amp, and two mono full-house-heating McIntosh tube MC-75s. I don't like them either.
I agree it would be best to find some old war-horse donors, except I haven't been able to find any. I live on the CT Shoreline; I bought my TW1s (30 years ago) at an audio shop no longer in business that was only about a half-hour from here, and I KNOW they sold a lot of them, as did Take 5 Audio in New Haven, which has been in business 33 years (and still is), but I've been checking Craig'sList and eBay with no joy for quite some time now.
As I only have about 3,439 projects in "progress' (and I use the word advisedly!), another one couldn't hurt, right?
Thanks again!
Bart
I would read thru these post Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - AVS Forum,kind of long but quite a bit of information.Also go to the DCM site and read the old manuals and you can see out the Time Windows progressed.The time Window 1As had vifa tweeters with an acoustic lens .Parts express sells a simlar tweeter not the same one.The woofers are DCM design not philips and are cross at around 3000.I agree with AMT ,get some used ones and restore them, there are only two caps that are electrolitics the rest of the crossover is fine. TW1
Oh, I'm not arguing -- they sounded great to me in the TW1s! My thinking -- if it can be called that -- was that, providing all the other criteria could be met, more modern drivers (e.g. neodymium wasn't used back then AFAIK, nor was ferro-fluid cooling, at least not in anything I could afford -- $800.00 for a pair of TW1s was a chunk of change in the early '80s, for me at least!) would be cleaner/less expensive/in some way better.
Thanks!
Bart
DCMs did sound pretty good, but the state of the art has advanced considerably since then. I've played with and taken apart a few junk/dead/used Time Windows, they never impressed me with their build quality, they did look good on the outside and they employed relatively good drivers (woofers and tweeters) but the crossovers components were sub par and the enclosures were rather thin, flimsy.
Thanks for the link to AVS (a forum to which I belonged, but had forgotten about. Did I mention my ADD (not kidding)?
I copied and pasted all 22 pages of the thread, and, since we're basically snowed in here on the CT shoreline, will be reading them long into the winter night.
I had checked out DCM's site, and I just checked them again. In their "Past Manuals" section, these were all I could find:
Macrophone 689 kb
Powered Time Frame 1060 kb
Power Time Window Surroundscape 2039 kb
Sub 210 1489 kb
Surround Center 321 kb
TF-1000 371 kb
TF-2000 354 kb
TF-250 139 kb
TF-275 135 kb
TF-350 385 kb
TF-400 146 kb
TF-400 Series Two 440 kb
TF-500 Series Two 223 kb
TF-600 Series Two 303 kb
TF-700 Series Two 371 kb
TF V10 Series Two 786 kb
TF-V6 584 kb
TF-V8 862 kb
Time Window Seven 716 kb
Time Window Surround Scape 681 kb
Triple Time 223 kb
VLS-2 750kb
C520 750kb
C625 750kb
C825 750kb
W625 750kb
FT6 750kb
FT10750kb
FT12750kb
TB1515750kb
TF625750kb
...which, as far as I can tell, doesn't help me much, but I DLd the Time Window Seven, Time Window Surround Scape, and Triple Time manuals just for the hell of it, and I'll add those to my winter night's reading.
I have tried to find a pair (a set daily autosearch on eBay, and numerous searches on CraigsList) and so far (I wish CraigsList would let you search the entire US & Canada, instead of just cities and regions -- it IS tedious!), I have found ONE pair -- in what looks like gorgeous condition -- but so far away I don't know if the seller (I'm waiting for his reply) would consent to pack them up and ship them.
Thanks again for the help
Having taken them apart, can you tell me what's inside the SonoTube and MDF enclosure, other than the XO on the bottom plate?
El Roi -- I hope you don't mind me using your photos for illustrative purposes (let me know if you do, and I'll take them down). What I'm trying to determine (among a LOT of other things) is what the internal configuration of this port was:
(I believe these are 1a's -- correct me if I'm wrong, but my original "1s," with the plastic "sock-holder" strip down the middle of the back, didn't have this port, it had the plastic port horns, as shown below. My 1s also didn't have the felt "eyelids over the woofers, or the mesh and damping foam over the tweeters, they looked exactly like the next image)
Or how far the throats of the port horns on (what I believe are) the "1s" below intruded into the interior volume of the enclosure:
or if there was any other baffling inside the enclosure (in this image, looking UP from the bottom baseplate to which the XO was affixed, all I can see is some batting):
If anyone has ANY more info on what was actually inside the SonoTube and MDF "arc-cylinder" enclosure of the Time Window 1s, or any other hot tips on its design, or why I have rocks in my head to think I could even come close to replicating the Eberbacher design, I'd be most appreciative to hear from you. Meanwhile, I'm still looking for a used pair, in pretty much any restorable condition (which precludes having been in a flood, as neither the SonoTube nor MDF take kindly to water).
Thanks for all your help!
Bart
El Roi -- I hope you don't mind me using your photos for illustrative purposes (let me know if you do, and I'll take them down). What I'm trying to determine (among a LOT of other things) is what the internal configuration of this port was:
(I believe these are 1a's -- correct me if I'm wrong, but my original "1s," with the plastic "sock-holder" strip down the middle of the back, didn't have this port, it had the plastic port horns, as shown below. My 1s also didn't have the felt "eyelids over the woofers, or the mesh and damping foam over the tweeters, they looked exactly like the next image)
Or how far the throats of the port horns on (what I believe are) the "1s" below intruded into the interior volume of the enclosure:
or if there was any other baffling inside the enclosure (in this image, looking UP from the bottom baseplate to which the XO was affixed, all I can see is some batting):
If anyone has ANY more info on what was actually inside the SonoTube and MDF "arc-cylinder" enclosure of the Time Window 1s, or any other hot tips on its design, or why I have rocks in my head to think I could even come close to replicating the Eberbacher design, I'd be most appreciative to hear from you. Meanwhile, I'm still looking for a used pair, in pretty much any restorable condition (which precludes having been in a flood, as neither the SonoTube nor MDF take kindly to water).
Thanks for all your help!
Bart
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=152004 Woofer info 1A
AD0140-2.jpg Tweeter 1
Vifa D19TD-05 3/4" Poly Dome Tweeter | Parts-Express.com Tweeter 1A
Inside Dimensions for 1 not 1a ,110 degree front baffle angle, 7.75" length inside face each baffle, 9.375" from angle center/point to radius cabinet back,height 33"tall about 40 liters volume. Cabinet is stuffed from top to bottom. Two ports 2" ID by 7" long. Outside baffle face dimension 8"wide, driver locations to center, woofer 4” from outer edge, tweeter 3” from outer edge. Measuring from under top cap down, woofer 5.75" to center tweeter 11" to center. Ports from outer edge to center 5.5" one each baffle, from bottom cap up to center of port 3.250" for one baffle the other port is 6.250" up to center. Measuring between two caps not total height 34.5" total height is 36".
AD0140-2.jpg Tweeter 1
Vifa D19TD-05 3/4" Poly Dome Tweeter | Parts-Express.com Tweeter 1A
Inside Dimensions for 1 not 1a ,110 degree front baffle angle, 7.75" length inside face each baffle, 9.375" from angle center/point to radius cabinet back,height 33"tall about 40 liters volume. Cabinet is stuffed from top to bottom. Two ports 2" ID by 7" long. Outside baffle face dimension 8"wide, driver locations to center, woofer 4” from outer edge, tweeter 3” from outer edge. Measuring from under top cap down, woofer 5.75" to center tweeter 11" to center. Ports from outer edge to center 5.5" one each baffle, from bottom cap up to center of port 3.250" for one baffle the other port is 6.250" up to center. Measuring between two caps not total height 34.5" total height is 36".
I'm pleased to announce that, thanks to Craig's List, I'm the new owner of an exceptionally clean pair pair of DCM Time Window 1s, which traveled here to the icy north from the environs of St. Louis, and thanks to an astounding packing job, arrived in perfect condition at the hands of FedEx. Have some hook-ups to do, but I can't wait to hear these again.
Would someone remind me of the McMaster-Carr number for the "sock foam," people have been using please? The previous owner did an excellent job of re-foaming these TWs, but the foam is a large open-cell with a reflective finish to the edges, and I'd like something a little more flat.
The previous owner also did a very nice job refinishing the tops and bottomes, and I like them better than the original finish (these are a bit lighter, with a more evident grain figure.
I'll post pics!
PS: I came across something I'd completely forgotten existed: Time Windows². Any views on these babies?
I have another set of speakers I'd like to tell the group about, but they're not DCMs, they're heavily-modified Micro-Acoustics, with the five-way tweeter array, with -- of all things, big ol' MTX drivers, and a super-zingy crossover designed and built by an electronic engineer (and speaker modder for profit) friend of mine, and given to me as a wedding present at my SECOND marriage, 23 years ago.
Then I have a gaming sound-feedback project I'd like some (a lot of) advice on). I'll post in the appropriate forums.
Thanks to everyone here for steering me into tracking down the real things, instead of trying to replicate the TW1s -- much money and frustration was saved, I imagine...
Peace
Bart Brown
Would someone remind me of the McMaster-Carr number for the "sock foam," people have been using please? The previous owner did an excellent job of re-foaming these TWs, but the foam is a large open-cell with a reflective finish to the edges, and I'd like something a little more flat.
The previous owner also did a very nice job refinishing the tops and bottomes, and I like them better than the original finish (these are a bit lighter, with a more evident grain figure.
I'll post pics!
PS: I came across something I'd completely forgotten existed: Time Windows². Any views on these babies?
I have another set of speakers I'd like to tell the group about, but they're not DCMs, they're heavily-modified Micro-Acoustics, with the five-way tweeter array, with -- of all things, big ol' MTX drivers, and a super-zingy crossover designed and built by an electronic engineer (and speaker modder for profit) friend of mine, and given to me as a wedding present at my SECOND marriage, 23 years ago.
Then I have a gaming sound-feedback project I'd like some (a lot of) advice on). I'll post in the appropriate forums.
Thanks to everyone here for steering me into tracking down the real things, instead of trying to replicate the TW1s -- much money and frustration was saved, I imagine...
Peace
Bart Brown
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Dismantled...
Well I finally started to redo my TWs. I removed the top and bottom caps and cut the top of the speaker open with a sabre saw. If I didnt know the speakers were a commercial product, Id say they were fabricated in someones garage. Standard PVC, sonotube, Liquid Nails (lots of that) and a pretty ugly XO.
The pictures Ive seen of the TW1a and TW3 represent a big improvement in build and execution.
The crossover in particular is of interest since it appears nothing like the TW1a design. I will post it once I figure it out and draw it up.
amt
Well I finally started to redo my TWs. I removed the top and bottom caps and cut the top of the speaker open with a sabre saw. If I didnt know the speakers were a commercial product, Id say they were fabricated in someones garage. Standard PVC, sonotube, Liquid Nails (lots of that) and a pretty ugly XO.
The pictures Ive seen of the TW1a and TW3 represent a big improvement in build and execution.
The crossover in particular is of interest since it appears nothing like the TW1a design. I will post it once I figure it out and draw it up.
amt
Attachments
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