Skanspeak ring radiator? anyone try them?
I have to buy a matching tweeter for my MTM 2 ways, done with the Skanning 18 cm midbass c-quenze drivers. A Tweeter that matches them in quality. Not much choices up there...
The one I'm looking at is the 2904/70000, ring tweeter.
any other possibles?
I'm looking at the Morel MDT-33SE, which I have few of in current proto models. I know how to handle this unit already. Fabulous, if re-done, physically modified, in the way we are wont to do here. All custom loading, etc.
I'm not sure I want to buy (employ in a production model) a tweeter I can't take apart and modify, in the way I do the other tweeters we use. I'd hate to buy the skanspeak units,and find they don't come apart in the way the MDT-33 does.
anyone handled these yet?
Ah, I'll probably have to call them and ask.."Hey, can I take these puppies apart?" The unspoken part being...'we feel our loading design and practices are superiour to yours'.
I'm not sure they'll like that. Even if it is unspoken.
I have to buy a matching tweeter for my MTM 2 ways, done with the Skanning 18 cm midbass c-quenze drivers. A Tweeter that matches them in quality. Not much choices up there...
The one I'm looking at is the 2904/70000, ring tweeter.
any other possibles?
I'm looking at the Morel MDT-33SE, which I have few of in current proto models. I know how to handle this unit already. Fabulous, if re-done, physically modified, in the way we are wont to do here. All custom loading, etc.
I'm not sure I want to buy (employ in a production model) a tweeter I can't take apart and modify, in the way I do the other tweeters we use. I'd hate to buy the skanspeak units,and find they don't come apart in the way the MDT-33 does.
anyone handled these yet?
Ah, I'll probably have to call them and ask.."Hey, can I take these puppies apart?" The unspoken part being...'we feel our loading design and practices are superiour to yours'.
I'm not sure they'll like that. Even if it is unspoken.
ATTENTION!!!!
the " MDT-33SE " is a copy .a clone of the patented mdt-33 handcraffed by morel !!!!
do not buy it,is not the new version of mdt33.
the official site product of morel is : http://www.morel.co.il/ here you can find all official morel products.
i'm according with taco about the supreme : it is the TWEETER.
the 33,that i prefer,is slower than supreme.
the sound of the 33 is almost identical.
the 33 is more sens than supreme.
if you want the sound of 33,but with more speed choice the supreme.
redards.
the " MDT-33SE " is a copy .a clone of the patented mdt-33 handcraffed by morel !!!!
do not buy it,is not the new version of mdt33.
the official site product of morel is : http://www.morel.co.il/ here you can find all official morel products.
i'm according with taco about the supreme : it is the TWEETER.
the 33,that i prefer,is slower than supreme.
the sound of the 33 is almost identical.
the 33 is more sens than supreme.
if you want the sound of 33,but with more speed choice the supreme.
redards.
The Speaker is a MTM, so the efficiency of the tweeter must be, quitel likely, higher than that of the Morel 110 Supreme unit.
I have a pair of both units, the MDT-33,and the 'SE' as well. I'm not sure the SE is any better than the original 33. Seems slower and a bit more cloudy. The drivers are new (the SE versions I have), as well, so I don't wish to cast a bad light on a tweeter that is not broken in.
Also, for the morel, they do not supply frequency response graphs/imp graphs, of any kind..that I have seen so far. I know I can get the morel MDT33 unit to work with the 162,144, 164, etc..in MTM configurations. But not anything about this Supreme unit.
The US distributor of Morel units is NOT carrying the Supreme units, for some unknown reason. I have spoken directly on this subject with them.
Due to the sensitivity requirements of the C-Quenze drivers in a MTM configuration, the Skanspeak Ring Radiator is looking like the best choice. However, their load ingof the chamber appears to be pushing or pressuring the unit into a false low end output in the 500-2k range. It appeas as if their might be a linearity problem in the lower ranges, which the Morel does not suffer (MDT-33) from, to too much of an extent. You just have to know how to load them.
I spoke to them in Denmark this morning (here in Canada) but.. of course, all the people had left the factory already. It was 4pm in Denmark, 10am here in Canada. I did get an answer to the back plate removal issue, but it was entirely inconclusive.
I'll try the US office in the next hour or two.
I have a pair of both units, the MDT-33,and the 'SE' as well. I'm not sure the SE is any better than the original 33. Seems slower and a bit more cloudy. The drivers are new (the SE versions I have), as well, so I don't wish to cast a bad light on a tweeter that is not broken in.
Also, for the morel, they do not supply frequency response graphs/imp graphs, of any kind..that I have seen so far. I know I can get the morel MDT33 unit to work with the 162,144, 164, etc..in MTM configurations. But not anything about this Supreme unit.
The US distributor of Morel units is NOT carrying the Supreme units, for some unknown reason. I have spoken directly on this subject with them.
Due to the sensitivity requirements of the C-Quenze drivers in a MTM configuration, the Skanspeak Ring Radiator is looking like the best choice. However, their load ingof the chamber appears to be pushing or pressuring the unit into a false low end output in the 500-2k range. It appeas as if their might be a linearity problem in the lower ranges, which the Morel does not suffer (MDT-33) from, to too much of an extent. You just have to know how to load them.
I spoke to them in Denmark this morning (here in Canada) but.. of course, all the people had left the factory already. It was 4pm in Denmark, 10am here in Canada. I did get an answer to the back plate removal issue, but it was entirely inconclusive.
I'll try the US office in the next hour or two.
I've heard the scans in the Meadowlark Blue Heron 2s. They were great IMO. In my last project, I used the Accuton C23-6 1.2" tweeter and it is quite good also. It has an extremely low fs, good power handling and efficiency. I haven't herd the Morels, but I can reccomend the scan and accuton tweets.
You can wait until the new Seas T29CF002 hits the market. I understand that it's their new top of the line tweeter. It's sensitivity is 92,5 dB and FS at a low 500 hz.
You can find more info here: http://www.clofis.nl/nl/seas/Seas CES 2005 news.pdf
Jonasz
You can find more info here: http://www.clofis.nl/nl/seas/Seas CES 2005 news.pdf
Jonasz
Lots of Morel driver info here :
http://www.eltimaudio.com/products/drivers.htm & http://www.madisound.com/catalog.html
By the way, what's your opinion of the 18cm Cquenze?
I'm about to start using the 15cm version.
www.gattiweb.com/delta_construction
http://www.eltimaudio.com/products/drivers.htm & http://www.madisound.com/catalog.html
By the way, what's your opinion of the 18cm Cquenze?
I'm about to start using the 15cm version.
www.gattiweb.com/delta_construction
I like Mr. Skanning's drivers very much. The 18 seems a bit better in excursion capacity than the 15, but both are excellent. They tend to sound more like music than all the rest, whomever's driver it may be. I don't like complex crossvers, and skannings drivers allow for proper simple crossover design. This, in my opinion, is critical. There is a incredible amount of driver design wisdom hiding in what appears -on the surface- to be very simple designs. A critical lesson for the rest of the driver design world, in my opinion.
Thanks for the links.
As for Seas drivers.. every single one of their driver's I've had a chance to design around..sounds... how to put it politely....uhmm.... "GREY". Like a 70's recording out of California.
Slightly hard, slightly grey.
And overdamped.Ie, dead. lifeless. The notes are too similar, etc. These effects are minor, to be sure, but enough that I personally don't use their products. However, I am very willing to be proven wrong, on any of their drivers I have not encountered.
Everything I design around has to be for extemely tightly sealed systems. This means no phase plug drivers of any kind. The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position. We have to remove the bass driver(s) to ship them by air. The bass drivers will pop from the pressure changes on take-off.
Thanks for the links.
As for Seas drivers.. every single one of their driver's I've had a chance to design around..sounds... how to put it politely....uhmm.... "GREY". Like a 70's recording out of California.
Slightly hard, slightly grey.
And overdamped.Ie, dead. lifeless. The notes are too similar, etc. These effects are minor, to be sure, but enough that I personally don't use their products. However, I am very willing to be proven wrong, on any of their drivers I have not encountered.
Everything I design around has to be for extemely tightly sealed systems. This means no phase plug drivers of any kind. The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position. We have to remove the bass driver(s) to ship them by air. The bass drivers will pop from the pressure changes on take-off.
454Casull said:
In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear. How many speakers do you know that pay attention to this very important specification of design? We have our reasons for doing things this way.
BTW: Do you have a .454? I'd be interested in attempting to break my wrist with one of those, just to say I tried it. Maybe put a dent in my forehead. I'm looking to get my restricted back, as I let it lapse about 5-7 years ago. I better get it back before they make it impossible to do so.
"Dont forget about bafflestep in your MTM, if you have 90db drivers you will end up with 90dB after you factor in BS. So a super high efficiency tweeter must likely will not be required."
That's been my experience as well. I do like fairly high efficency tweeters, though. This gives me the room to play with the slope, control, damping and ... most importantly.. the phase alignment. In my experience, you -need- that lever, of having to pad the tweeter. Not just pad, but to change or alter the slope, etc to try and get the best phase alignment. Otherwise, you are left with only one weapon,and that is the top of the woofer's response, and the one lever isn't quite enough. Both have to be used, I find. And I also find a slightly, I mean slightly rising but even and controlled rolloff sounds best. These designs with sharp cut-offs give serious grief in crossover design. I won't even consider one anymore. Sharp roll-offs (raw woofer response) always seem to exactly equate to delayed (phase) energy and creates mud in the crossover range, and a hole or peak that is impossible to get rid of.
Jonasz said:
Honestly, out of all the drivers on that page, and just from looking at the curves, I'd like to play with the 29TFF/W (H1318) more than the others. It has about a dB less sensitivity than the new Excels, a tad less Xmax, and a resonant frequency about an octave higher, but nonetheless it talks to me since the response is essentially linear through the passband. Perhaps it's due to the elliptical waveguide, who knows? Tweeters with moderate circular loading, such as the Scan-Speak Revelator and Morel Supremes, seem to have some minor response irregularities from 6 kHz to 15kHz or so.
As far as the H1318 goes, Xmax is a non-issue with a 4th order crossover, higher resonance is also a non-issue since dealing with that is simpler than straightening out the various kinks in other tweeters' curves, and sensitivity is quite adequate at 92 dB. If the thing lives up to Seas' advance specs, I suspect we'll be seeing a lot of that driver.
Cheers,
Francois.
You mean you are actually shipping products?!?! Won't that give away all the super-secret decades ahead of the rest of us stuff that you guys have been sitting on for years? Won't the government step in and intercept all your shipments so that this beyond-high-tech technology won't get out into the general population?
"Everything I design around has to be for extemely tightly sealed systems. This means no phase plug drivers of any kind. The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position. We have to remove the bass driver(s) to ship them by air. The bass drivers will pop from the pressure changes on take-off."
If a driver could be pushed in and take a minute to return it suggests a leaky box. A sealed box would act as a pure spring and instantly bounce the cone out again. Also the speakers would run a bigger risk of "popping" if they were leaking and NOT if they where as tightly sealed as you suggest. If they where "so sealed" they would resist the fluctuating outside pressure better than if they where "leaky". Dissconnecting them of course eliminates all offsetting problems.
A driver in a sealed closed box will bounce very quickly when pushed in due to the spring action of the enclosed air. Insert a Variovent and you will get closer to the "one minute to return to rest position" situation you refer to. A variovent is a leaky resistive device that is used to improve on transient behaviour by damping the system resonance (potentially cutting the impedance peak by half or so), slightly similar as adding more damping inside a closed box. Also called aperiodic design.
"In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear."
While the idea may be perfect the box air-spring certainly is not. The springyness of a volume of enclosed air is non linear. The bigger the volume and the lower the driver displacement the better.
/Peter
If a driver could be pushed in and take a minute to return it suggests a leaky box. A sealed box would act as a pure spring and instantly bounce the cone out again. Also the speakers would run a bigger risk of "popping" if they were leaking and NOT if they where as tightly sealed as you suggest. If they where "so sealed" they would resist the fluctuating outside pressure better than if they where "leaky". Dissconnecting them of course eliminates all offsetting problems.
A driver in a sealed closed box will bounce very quickly when pushed in due to the spring action of the enclosed air. Insert a Variovent and you will get closer to the "one minute to return to rest position" situation you refer to. A variovent is a leaky resistive device that is used to improve on transient behaviour by damping the system resonance (potentially cutting the impedance peak by half or so), slightly similar as adding more damping inside a closed box. Also called aperiodic design.
"In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear."
While the idea may be perfect the box air-spring certainly is not. The springyness of a volume of enclosed air is non linear. The bigger the volume and the lower the driver displacement the better.
/Peter
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