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Old 22nd January 2005, 06:15 PM   #11
ekaerin is offline ekaerin  Sweden
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KBK,
If your boxes are that tight why rely on someone else to put
the drivers back after shipping. Find a new solution to the problem.

/ Mattias
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Old 23rd January 2005, 03:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by KBK
Everything I design around has to be for extemely tightly sealed systems. This means no phase plug drivers of any kind. The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position.
That must do wonders for the sound.

EDIT: Before you get on my azz about it, it's a tongue-in-cheek comment. But it sure does sound like those drivers depend on a hell of a lot of Qes.
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Old 23rd January 2005, 03:28 AM   #13
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Dont forget about bafflestep in your MTM, if you have 90db drivers you will end up with 90dB after you factor in BS. So a super high efficiency tweeter must likely will not be required.
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Old 23rd January 2005, 03:48 AM   #14
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by 454Casull

That must do wonders for the sound.

EDIT: Before you get on my azz about it, it's a tongue-in-cheek comment. But it sure does sound like those drivers depend on a hell of a lot of Qes.
In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear. How many speakers do you know that pay attention to this very important specification of design? We have our reasons for doing things this way.

BTW: Do you have a .454? I'd be interested in attempting to break my wrist with one of those, just to say I tried it. Maybe put a dent in my forehead. I'm looking to get my restricted back, as I let it lapse about 5-7 years ago. I better get it back before they make it impossible to do so.


"Dont forget about bafflestep in your MTM, if you have 90db drivers you will end up with 90dB after you factor in BS. So a super high efficiency tweeter must likely will not be required."

That's been my experience as well. I do like fairly high efficency tweeters, though. This gives me the room to play with the slope, control, damping and ... most importantly.. the phase alignment. In my experience, you -need- that lever, of having to pad the tweeter. Not just pad, but to change or alter the slope, etc to try and get the best phase alignment. Otherwise, you are left with only one weapon,and that is the top of the woofer's response, and the one lever isn't quite enough. Both have to be used, I find. And I also find a slightly, I mean slightly rising but even and controlled rolloff sounds best. These designs with sharp cut-offs give serious grief in crossover design. I won't even consider one anymore. Sharp roll-offs (raw woofer response) always seem to exactly equate to delayed (phase) energy and creates mud in the crossover range, and a hole or peak that is impossible to get rid of.
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Old 23rd January 2005, 04:11 AM   #15
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by ekaerin
KBK,
If your boxes are that tight why rely on someone else to put
the drivers back after shipping. Find a new solution to the problem.

/ Mattias
We will probably just have one woofer out a bit, with spacers for air passage. Then, at the other end, the dealer would have to screw the driver in all the way. It's little touches of hassle and pain like that, which makes the customer feel they are geting something special.
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Old 23rd January 2005, 05:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonasz
You can wait until the new Seas T29CF002 hits the market. I understand that it's their new top of the line tweeter. It's sensitivity is 92,5 dB and FS at a low 500 hz.

You can find more info here: http://www.clofis.nl/nl/seas/Seas%20...005%20news.pdf

Jonasz

Honestly, out of all the drivers on that page, and just from looking at the curves, I'd like to play with the 29TFF/W (H1318) more than the others. It has about a dB less sensitivity than the new Excels, a tad less Xmax, and a resonant frequency about an octave higher, but nonetheless it talks to me since the response is essentially linear through the passband. Perhaps it's due to the elliptical waveguide, who knows? Tweeters with moderate circular loading, such as the Scan-Speak Revelator and Morel Supremes, seem to have some minor response irregularities from 6 kHz to 15kHz or so.

As far as the H1318 goes, Xmax is a non-issue with a 4th order crossover, higher resonance is also a non-issue since dealing with that is simpler than straightening out the various kinks in other tweeters' curves, and sensitivity is quite adequate at 92 dB. If the thing lives up to Seas' advance specs, I suspect we'll be seeing a lot of that driver.


Cheers,
Francois.
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Old 24th January 2005, 02:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by KBK


In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear. How many speakers do you know that pay attention to this very important specification of design? We have our reasons for doing things this way.

BTW: Do you have a .454? I'd be interested in attempting to break my wrist with one of those, just to say I tried it. Maybe put a dent in my forehead. I'm looking to get my restricted back, as I let it lapse about 5-7 years ago. I better get it back before they make it impossible to do so.
I wasn't talking about the linearity of Cms, I was talking about the mechanical lossiness. Which can be linear.

And no, I don't have one. I don't think I could, even if I wanted to.
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Old 24th January 2005, 03:37 AM   #18
RHosch is offline RHosch  United States
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Quote:
The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position. We have to remove the bass driver(s) to ship them by air. The bass drivers will pop from the pressure changes on take-off.
You mean you are actually shipping products?!?! Won't that give away all the super-secret decades ahead of the rest of us stuff that you guys have been sitting on for years? Won't the government step in and intercept all your shipments so that this beyond-high-tech technology won't get out into the general population?
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Old 24th January 2005, 03:47 AM   #19
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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We're not shipping speakers. But that is a problem though. Thanks for the sarcasm. Much appreciated.

The subject at hand is the scanspeak ring radiator. Heard them yet?
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Old 24th January 2005, 05:08 PM   #20
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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"Everything I design around has to be for extemely tightly sealed systems. This means no phase plug drivers of any kind. The boxes are so tight that if I was to push a driver cone in, it takes about a minute to return to it's resting position. We have to remove the bass driver(s) to ship them by air. The bass drivers will pop from the pressure changes on take-off."


If a driver could be pushed in and take a minute to return it suggests a leaky box. A sealed box would act as a pure spring and instantly bounce the cone out again. Also the speakers would run a bigger risk of "popping" if they were leaking and NOT if they where as tightly sealed as you suggest. If they where "so sealed" they would resist the fluctuating outside pressure better than if they where "leaky". Dissconnecting them of course eliminates all offsetting problems.

A driver in a sealed closed box will bounce very quickly when pushed in due to the spring action of the enclosed air. Insert a Variovent and you will get closer to the "one minute to return to rest position" situation you refer to. A variovent is a leaky resistive device that is used to improve on transient behaviour by damping the system resonance (potentially cutting the impedance peak by half or so), slightly similar as adding more damping inside a closed box. Also called aperiodic design.

"In this case, the 'idea' of the mechanical spring component is nearly perfect, and linear."

While the idea may be perfect the box air-spring certainly is not. The springyness of a volume of enclosed air is non linear. The bigger the volume and the lower the driver displacement the better.

/Peter
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