Best bass horn 50 – 500 Hz

[rick57]

Happy New Year!

Trying to put together a really dynamic clean system.
I was intending to use a dipole 12 inch from 50 – 300 Hz.

After recent listening, I’m swinging over to horns, and it seems if I change the mid-bass XO from 300 to about 500 Hz, it’ll make it easier to find a really good horn mid system.

The Labhorn is apperently great to about 100-150 Hz.

What bass horn system is really good over about 50 – 500 Hz??

Cheers

Richard

[BillFitzmaurice]

Very few. A horn long enough to go to 50 Hz is going to be folded, and that pretty much limits the high end to perhaps 400 Hz. Labhorn is way too big for home use. Corner loaded my Tuba 24 works pretty good to the thirties, but is limited to about 250 Hz at best on the upper end. I personally run a folded horn sub to 80 Hz and then go to a line array for the midbass/tweeters, as it's a lot more space efficient than horns and still has good sensitivity at 99-100dB and is a lot flatter in response than most horns as well.

[ScottG]

Originally posted by rick57
Happy New Year!

Trying to put together a really dynamic clean system.
I was intending to use a dipole 12 inch from 50 – 300 Hz.

After recent listening, I’m swinging over to horns, and it seems if I change the mid-bass XO from 300 to about 500 Hz, it’ll make it easier to find a really good horn mid system.

The Labhorn is apperently great to about 100-150 Hz.

What bass horn system is really good over about 50 – 500 Hz??

Cheers

Richard

If you go that route you'll have problems with time delay UNLESS you have a digital eq. (which means multiple amps).

Don't give up on the idea of dipole use in that range unless your absolutely fixed on no more than one 12 inch with high eff. and low cost.

I gather that you don't think the sound has enough "punch" based on recent listening? This can be compenstated for via driver selection and loading..

Magenetar has had great success with his dipole Karlson in this freq. range. (and he is a horn-(dog)). Might try posting on the High Eff. board of the Audio Asylum to get his response on the situation.

You've gotten my suggestion on the right driver for midrange and treble (the McCauley and BMS). Now lets look to 50-300 Hz range for a dipole with similar eff. and low cost..

My pick would be (depending on freq. extension with amp use):

60-300: 1 Eminence Big Ben (designed to be an "open-back" aka dipole speaker) for use with low output impeadance amps (like most solid state amps).
http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/em...oat/bigben.htm
widely available
30-300: 2 Madison Knight 15's for use with high output impeadance amps (like most SET amps).
http://madisonspeakers.netfirms.com/rawdrivers.htm
available from SteelSound
Now as to the loading:
Karlson's were marketed as providing extended bass response, but they don't do this - however they DO something to the output in the freq. range were talking about (in the size were talking about) - something that does add significantly to a "punchy" character (aka "slam").

[rick57]

Bill

What drivers do you use for the line array midbass?

IIRC, line arrays are directional, based on the height of the array. I have a few Peerless XLSs, which are 90 dB each. They’re fairly flat up to 490 Hz break-up.
To avoid the break-up would need a 4th order at about 280 Hz. I wonder how they might suit being in an array of four?? SAF?

Scott

I think I’m going to end up with multiple amps, though several of them may not need much power. As above, I certainly don’t mind more than one 12 inch a side.

I really like the naturalness of dipole bass (as heard in the Orion). I am looking for punch as well. Sometimes I’ve thought, use dipole as the primary bass up to say 250 Hz, and when the mood or the music suits, supplement it with bass from another pair of xx from say 60 – 200 Hz.
XLSs would make very compact sealed woofers, but may not quite have the ultimate transient oomph. A higher sensitivity (eg 96-98 dB) pro driver would be good, but I was thinking in a vented box as a horn over that range would be too big.

I’m in Australia - SteelSound who’s drivers seem very good value, alas like a lot a lot of American businesses, don’t export
But Eminence are sold here. I see they have a sense of humour at Eminence (the driver names). Big Ben looks like fun, but the FR shows a slump about 70-100 Hz, maybe a box could support that. I’ll try to model it later but the specs have an error as they state Xmax is 0. I’ll contact a local dealer.
I see the Qts of the Eminence drivers varies enormously. I agree two a side is probably warranted/ better.

Yes loading:
Have you heard Magenetar’s dipole Karlson??
** Is the “adding significantly to a punchy character (aka slam)” a hump in FR, or heightened dynamics?

Yes, I should post HE to AA.

[ScottG]

I haven't heard it - but he has explained pretty well what he likes, and he likes "punch". As far as what the Karlson is doing to the signal - I don't know, and I don't think others do either. (I have a guess, but you wouldn't like it.) Yes their probably is an increase in level, but I don't think it explains the perception of "punch" though it may add slightly. For instance I can eq. up more in the upperbass/lower mids by 6 or 7 db.s and still not get that "punch" feeling with a driver that doesn't have it.

I don't think the eminence has much x-max at all, but it IS designed to be open-back (in otherword like the McCauleys lack of "q" related params, its pointless). What this means of course is that it should be quite good unless your looking for extreme spls without a lot of distortion (and I wouldn't be at all surpised if it rarely had more than 1 watt feeding it unless your approaching deafness). I think the depresion is likely baffle-loss related (i.e. the H fram baffles that a guitar "box" uses have very shallow sides). Also recognize that if you do use a tube amp with a specific output impeance that you will likely get more usable extension.

[John Sheerin]

If the Eminence specs say 0mm xmax, it means the coil length is the same as the top plate thickness and so it has 0mm of xmax by the common definition. Also, the Big Ben is a guitar speaker. Guitar speakers are usually designed to have cone breakup.

[BillFitzmaurice]

You can see pics and descriptions of both my line arrays and my subs (TLAH and Tuba 18 is what I use in my home) at my website.

[rick57]

Hi

I tried to post the following to the Karlson forum http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/: the question -

Which currently produced drivers are suitable for a Karlson, and/ or what driver parameters are critical, eg Qts? Vas?

But that forum is down for posts at present.

Can anyone here answer that question?

Scott – the idea of a *pair of Madison Knight 15s – were you implying a pair of boxes a side, or is there a way to fit two bass drivers in one Karlson enclosure? Double height??

Did you suggest the Big Ben and Madisons because of the very low Xmax – is that desirable for a Karlson?
If you’ve read SL’s site, you know that in an open-back, high Xmax is desirable (with EQ if you want flat response without a big baffle). Even from 120 Hz up, his 8 inchers have IIRC 6.5 mm Xmax. I guess the Big Ben is using size rather than Xmax.

I read once that there is nothing special about a Karlson, it’s just an odd BR variant. But perhaps there is some horn loading in the upper bass?


John

Yes the Big Ben is a guitar speaker, bit *if the published FR is correct, cone breakup doesn’t occur until above 1 kHz. It has quite low inductance, which (like Lambdas too) often seems to correlate with extended response for a bass driver. Though for this project I only want to cover up to 300 or 500 Hz.
What do you think of Karlsons?

Regards

[rick57]

Bill

The TLAH looks to me like a line array.
Can you say what features of transmission lines and horn-loaded enclosures that it incorporates?
What range is it typically flat over? Do you have FR graphs of all the designs, eg TLAH and DR250a?

Thanks

[rick57]

The Eminence Electro-Voice Delta Pro-12A, with:

Qts of 0.35
Fs 51 Hz
Xmax 3.2 mm
Inductance 0.84mH
Vas 82 litres
Voice Coil 2.5 inches
Sensitivity 95 dB

Thanks