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Old 14th January 2005, 04:52 PM   #51
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Are you trying to say he intentionally tried to make the LF reproduction omnidirectional?
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Old 14th January 2005, 05:26 PM   #52
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by mcargill
I have a somewhat less esoteric response to the question of what speaker designss try to implement some of KYW's priorities, namely, Legacy Focus and Whisper.
Darn it, I forgot about Legacy and the Whisper. The Whisper was prompted me first to reconsider the old "box thing" seriously and to start thinking things really through (prior to that I had used all sorts of speakers over the years though ones with certain design features stayed more than others, design features which with respect fit into my "now" philosophy rather well).

Quote:
Originally posted by mcargill
apparently Bill Dudleston is implementing the same design philosophy as KYW advocates,
Yes, Bill D is well "on it".

Quote:
Originally posted by mcargill
And, as KYW might predict, his design has been criticized (in an audiogon.com forum posting, at least) for not being perfectly flat when measured in the laboratory.
Not surprised at all.

Let me tell you something. At the last London HiFi show we where showing a dipole speaker (a rather compromised one, admitedly - commercial products invariably are). Okay, I admit to hiding the subwoofers out of sight, but the X-Over was only around 40 - 50Hz anyway.

Now I had at least a dozend designers of conventional speakers rotate through the room. They all could not believe what they heard/saw. It is rather amusing to see such serious guys walking around, looking behind the speakers and do all sorts of contortion to work out "why this works". They all knew it cannot work. They all noticed it did.

What tickled me most was to have Eduardo de Lima over and to have him listen to the system and have him spend quite a bit of time and saying "excellently done."... Yup, that EDL from Audiopax whose Monoblock Amp's cost more than the whole system we where actually playing at the time (3D Acoustics by Shanling SACD Player & Tube Integrated Amp, 3D Sonics Fullrange Dipole Speaker and a pair of REL Quake Subs).

Sayonara
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Old 14th January 2005, 05:28 PM   #53
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa

Quote:
Originally posted by 454Casull
Are you trying to say he intentionally tried to make the LF reproduction omnidirectional?
Not really. On the Whisper the rear 12" is actually passive, an absorber.... The Whisper BTW is not quite a dipole either.

Not sure about the Focus.

Sayonara
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Old 14th January 2005, 05:51 PM   #54
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: La Belle Province
Quote:
Originally posted by Mudge
I'm still pondering how controlled directivity speakers destroy imaging
Clearly, they don't. However, speakers with uncontrolled directivity do destroy tonal balance, and they do so depending on the listening room's properties. (A feature which makes them nice to DIY for a specific situation but a pain in the afternoon to commercialize for general purpose. But, for some reasons unkown to me, high-gloss magazine reviewers don't care about tonal balance. At least so it seems when you check what kind of speakers are successful.)

Cheerio,
bk
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Old 14th January 2005, 06:13 PM   #55
Nielsio is offline Nielsio  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang

Let me tell you something. At the last London HiFi show we where showing a dipole speaker (a rather compromised one, admitedly - commercial products invariably are). Okay, I admit to hiding the subwoofers out of sight, but the X-Over was only around 40 - 50Hz anyway.

Now I had at least a dozend designers of conventional speakers rotate through the room. They all could not believe what they heard/saw. It is rather amusing to see such serious guys walking around, looking behind the speakers and do all sorts of contortion to work out "why this works". They all knew it cannot work. They all noticed it did.

What tickled me most was to have Eduardo de Lima over and to have him listen to the system and have him spend quite a bit of time and saying "excellently done."... Yup, that EDL from Audiopax whose Monoblock Amp's cost more than the whole system we where actually playing at the time (3D Acoustics by Shanling SACD Player & Tube Integrated Amp, 3D Sonics Fullrange Dipole Speaker and a pair of REL Quake Subs).

You mean the 3D Sonics 'The transparence' right? http://www.realhi-fi.com/products/transparenceinfo.html . Not displaying a photo on there, but I did find one:
http://events.audiogon.com/i/en2004/h/1097264929.jpg

They look an awful lot like your own (lacquered 215 Sig BC's). You did mention you had something custom-made. Can you elaborate on that?
If it is the case that these are similar to yours, then what do you mean by 'a rather compromised one, admitedly'? Are you then talking about the sub?

I don't know if you've seen it in 'System descriptions' but my 215 setup is now like this: http://www.prijsindex.net/fotoboek/quasar.html. Which afterwards reminded me about a speaker you once did (two drivers placed close together without filtering).

I'm not sure how it compares with the subwoofered -variant but I sure am happy with the sound.
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Old 14th January 2005, 06:49 PM   #56
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio
You mean the 3D Sonics 'The transparence' right? http://www.realhi-fi.com/products/transparenceinfo.html . Not displaying a photo on there, but I did find one:
http://events.audiogon.com/i/en2004/h/1097264929.jpg
Yup, that is the one.

Click the image to open in full size.

And one with the original prototypes (but basically the same system) at the Show in the Spring 2004:

Click the image to open in full size.

It is pretty notable where the differences between prototypes and finished product are.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio
They look an awful lot like your own (lacquered 215 Sig BC's). You did mention you had something custom-made. Can you elaborate on that?
Mine are the original Prototypes. We sommothed out some rough edges. The Drivers we use have certain of their (measurable) properties changed and yes, they are C37 laquered (sorry, what is changed is not for the public domain).

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio
If it is the case that these are similar to yours, then what do you mean by 'a rather compromised one, admitedly'? Are you then talking about the sub?
No, I am talking about the main system. The dynamic range is just not there. They do okay up to a point, then they are at the endstops. Arguably that point is pretty loud, but they just cannot quite match systems with something like a 12 - 15" coaxial....

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio
I don't know if you've seen it in 'System descriptions' but my 215 setup is now like this: Click the image to open in full size. . Which afterwards reminded me about a speaker you once did (two drivers placed close together without filtering).
Well, that reminds me of my early Axiom 80 & Axiom 201 experiments....

Quote:
Originally posted by Nielsio
I'm not sure how it compares with the subwoofered -variant but I sure am happy with the sound.
Don't get me wrong, I'm rather happy with the sound as well, it is a very good compromise, but domestic acceptability has been traded for dynamic range. BTW, at home I use a dual 12" Mono Sub, not the 2pcs of REL.

Sayonara
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Old 14th January 2005, 06:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by 454Casull
Are you trying to say he intentionally tried to make the LF reproduction omnidirectional?

Actually, the Focus and the Whisper differ in this regard. Dudleston's explanation to me about the Focus was that since measurements of box speakers show them to be nearly omnidirectional at the low frequencies anyway, why not use the back side of the box to fit one of the woofers? I don't know that this is trying intentionally for making them more omnidirectional than they otherwise would have been, but it certainly is saying that directionality matters less for the low frequencies than the high. I think he also mentioned that at low frequencies in typical listening rooms it might make more sense to think of the woofers as pressurizing the room rather than as emitting waves that bounce around it, in which case the notion of reflections ceases to apply. On the Whisper, however, he has tried, by unboxing the woofers and using them in acoustically-coupled pairs, to make the bass emissions more directional and reduce the number of reflections.
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