I was pointed out to look for PRO drivers in another thread
titled ... DRIVER DISTORTION ... rolleyes:
Since then, i didn't have much time to look around
this site ( working 6 days week, 10-12 hours a day now
)
So i wanted to get more informed and on the lookout for drivers with less distortion ( not only lineair but all of em )
What qualifies a driver as " PRO " ???
I've looked at maby JBL pro drivers, and they seem to have less than 1% harmonic distortions, higher sensitivity, no esthetic not-required-for-good-sound-rising-price features !! ...
Why are we even buying hi-fi drivers, if there are better drivers that costs pretty much the same, and performs more in most categories ??
Isn't the main goal of us all to get the best sound reproduction system available ? i personally would sacrifice all esthetic conditions if it was required to get better sound, and i know that lots of you would do the same ( if the WAF is out of cause
So please all of you , wise guys, please advice me
( and all other readers) of the true path that leads to musical nirvana
WHAT TO DO ABOUT PRO VS HI-FI drivers ?
why not always use PRO drivers? ( pro drivers of high quality from reputable brands ..not badged cheap pro drivers )
also please compare hi-fi hot sutff to PRO hot stuff??
and beeing there, a few good names to look for in Pro drivers would be nice too
i already know of one easy, JBL
then i'm in the black !
again, thanks all for your time and sharing!
titled ... DRIVER DISTORTION ... rolleyes:
Since then, i didn't have much time to look around
this site ( working 6 days week, 10-12 hours a day now
)So i wanted to get more informed and on the lookout for drivers with less distortion ( not only lineair but all of em
)What qualifies a driver as " PRO " ???
I've looked at maby JBL pro drivers, and they seem to have less than 1% harmonic distortions, higher sensitivity, no esthetic not-required-for-good-sound-rising-price features !! ...
Why are we even buying hi-fi drivers, if there are better drivers that costs pretty much the same, and performs more in most categories ??
Isn't the main goal of us all to get the best sound reproduction system available ? i personally would sacrifice all esthetic conditions if it was required to get better sound, and i know that lots of you would do the same ( if the WAF is out of cause
So please all of you , wise guys, please advice me
( and all other readers) of the true path that leads to musical nirvana
WHAT TO DO ABOUT PRO VS HI-FI drivers ?
why not always use PRO drivers? ( pro drivers of high quality from reputable brands ..not badged cheap pro drivers )
also please compare hi-fi hot sutff to PRO hot stuff??
and beeing there, a few good names to look for in Pro drivers would be nice too
i already know of one easy, JBL
then i'm in the black !
again, thanks all for your time and sharing!
Aesthetics is more important than you give it credit for. We not only listen to our speakers, we have to live with them to; if we have to sit looking at ugly lumps of stuff it will not make us happy, which will make it harder to enjoy the sound, no matter how good it is.
I like pro drivers myself, but there are compromises, as Stocker has already said.
I like pro drivers myself, but there are compromises, as Stocker has already said.
yes true,
but my guess is that even with not so good looking pro drivers,
cabinets/enclosures can be made to look at least decent, with quite facility in our days... with all the available tools, materials, tints...
so i don't think there is a probleme here with that
for what stocker said, isn't that true also for most hi-fi drivers?
where can we find drivers that aren't build like this?
but my guess is that even with not so good looking pro drivers,
cabinets/enclosures can be made to look at least decent, with quite facility in our days... with all the available tools, materials, tints...
so i don't think there is a probleme here with that
for what stocker said, isn't that true also for most hi-fi drivers?
where can we find drivers that aren't build like this?
I dunno, you tell me. I've been using pro drivers for years.JinMTVT said:
No W so no WAF issues.
Isn't the main goal of us all to get the best sound reproduction system available ? i personally would sacrifice all esthetic conditions if it was required to get better sound, and i know that lots of you would do the same ( if the WAF is out of cause
Use what you like to listen to and ignore anyone else's opinion as it's not relevant.
So please all of you , wise guys, please advice me
( and all other readers) of the true path that leads to musical nirvana
Tip: there is no 'absolulte sound'.
Domestic stuff sounds like it needs a dose of metamucil
OTTOMH, Beyma, Fane, BMS, B&C, Renkus-Heinz, Mccauley, EV, Selenium, Ciare, 18Sound, Precision Dynamics, Altec, PHL, Eminence, Tannoy, CV, Celestion, Emilar, Gauss, Klipsh, PAS, Etone, Radian, TAD, P.Audio, RCF.and beeing there, a few good names to look for in Pro drivers would be nice too
i already know of one easy, JBL
Though a lot of pro drivers don't have a huge amount spent on their aesthetics, it's not hard to design taking that into account; a removable grille fro example so that thine partner's eyes need not be offended when not listening.Mr Evil said:
Then again, I had a pair of LABsubs in my loungeroom, painted flat white with a roller to 'blend' them into the walls.
Pro Drivers
Just happened to see this message.
I willonly use "pro" drivers because the "hi-end" stuff is just not up to snuff.
What is a Pro driver? Basically it is a high efficiency high power driver. Why does this make for good sound? Well first you need to understand what makes good sound, right? This is not as obvious as it seems. Nonlinear distortion in drivers is not really an issue unless they are over driven. With pro stuff in home use this is just about impossible. You'd go deaf first. Linear distortion? Well actually thats mostly the system design NOT the driver design. And Pro drivers do not suffer from power compression in homes since the are basically idling at those power levels.
To prove my point, and you can read the complete study at www.gedlee.com, I did a double blind test of four systems. One pro studio monitor, two custom designs using pro drivers, one a very expensive set and the other a much less expensive, but still high quality set, and finally a very expensive "hi-end" system in the $5k price range.
Results, not really stitisically significant , but there was little or no difference between the very expensive pro sound drivers and the far less ( about 1/5) pro sound drivers. The studio monitor lost out big time, and the pro drivers were virtually tied with the "high end" system for top honors. The pro sound drivers were cheap by comparison. But the big difference was the fact that the pro sound system was nearly 20 dB more efficient than the High end system. Thats a lot of amplifier power difference, and a lot lower heat disipation in a much bigger driver. So in the loing term and under higher SPL's the pro sound system would blow away the high end stuff.
So, to me, its a no contest between pro and Hi end. But, the system and room design is more important than the drivers by far!
Good question!
Earl
Just happened to see this message.
I willonly use "pro" drivers because the "hi-end" stuff is just not up to snuff.
What is a Pro driver? Basically it is a high efficiency high power driver. Why does this make for good sound? Well first you need to understand what makes good sound, right? This is not as obvious as it seems. Nonlinear distortion in drivers is not really an issue unless they are over driven. With pro stuff in home use this is just about impossible. You'd go deaf first. Linear distortion? Well actually thats mostly the system design NOT the driver design. And Pro drivers do not suffer from power compression in homes since the are basically idling at those power levels.
To prove my point, and you can read the complete study at www.gedlee.com, I did a double blind test of four systems. One pro studio monitor, two custom designs using pro drivers, one a very expensive set and the other a much less expensive, but still high quality set, and finally a very expensive "hi-end" system in the $5k price range.
Results, not really stitisically significant , but there was little or no difference between the very expensive pro sound drivers and the far less ( about 1/5) pro sound drivers. The studio monitor lost out big time, and the pro drivers were virtually tied with the "high end" system for top honors. The pro sound drivers were cheap by comparison. But the big difference was the fact that the pro sound system was nearly 20 dB more efficient than the High end system. Thats a lot of amplifier power difference, and a lot lower heat disipation in a much bigger driver. So in the loing term and under higher SPL's the pro sound system would blow away the high end stuff.
So, to me, its a no contest between pro and Hi end. But, the system and room design is more important than the drivers by far!
Good question!
Earl
Pro drivers are first and foremost about efficiency, and secondarily about durability.
Some consequences of this are that they tend to be (1) expensive (2) heavy and (3) not suited to either high or low frequency extremes.
Consumer level drivers are overall much less costly.
Pro drivers demand heavy construction and serious mounting hardware.
Few pro drivers are capable of producing frequencies below 50 Hz or above 14KHz.
Hi Fi is generally more concerned about frequency extremes and less concerned about efficiency so the trade-offs in driver design are different.
Some consequences of this are that they tend to be (1) expensive (2) heavy and (3) not suited to either high or low frequency extremes.
Consumer level drivers are overall much less costly.
Pro drivers demand heavy construction and serious mounting hardware.
Few pro drivers are capable of producing frequencies below 50 Hz or above 14KHz.
Hi Fi is generally more concerned about frequency extremes and less concerned about efficiency so the trade-offs in driver design are different.
Re: Pro Drivers
The 20dB efficiency advantage allows the use of a lot of different amplifier topologies as well, 'cos if you only need a few watts there's lots of ways to get that more easily and cheaply (especially DIY) than higher power.
Interesting test Earl, and ties with my experience.gedlee said:
The 20dB efficiency advantage allows the use of a lot of different amplifier topologies as well, 'cos if you only need a few watts there's lots of ways to get that more easily and cheaply (especially DIY) than higher power.
This is simply not true. Pro drivers see more abuse and with stand more orf same than any consumer stuff.
Again, not true. They do tend to be heavy, but for what you get they are far less expensive than high end speakers, maybe not the Chinese made cheap consumer stuff, but who wants to listen to that?
And as far as frequency extremes go they perform this task just as well as any other drivers.
This is a good thing right? I mean who wants cheap light construction and chinsy mounting hardware?
NO - hi fi is generally concerned with mass market, commetics, hype and high profitability. They are selling to novices who buy based on what looks "cool" or who markets the most. Pro stuff has to actually perform or the "pros" don't buy it!
A bunch of years ago I built a set of 1ft3 vented speaks with an eminence alpha 8 and a small (expensive) EV horn tweeter. I was amazed at the dynamics and speed of the system! My complaint was that the highs were harsh..real harsh. The eminences ended in the kickpanels of my p/u truck.
Not to threadjack....
Has anyone sucessfully horn loaded a 'high end' tweeter to raise it's sensivity? I would duplicate this system in a second if I could get rid of the top end harshness I hear in a lot of pro stuff.
Can I load a nice silk dome...maybe a morel... and bring it to 97 or so db 2.83v to match with a small pro 8"?
Not to threadjack....
Has anyone sucessfully horn loaded a 'high end' tweeter to raise it's sensivity? I would duplicate this system in a second if I could get rid of the top end harshness I hear in a lot of pro stuff.
Can I load a nice silk dome...maybe a morel... and bring it to 97 or so db 2.83v to match with a small pro 8"?
gedlee said:
I've never heard an EV tweet I really liked. Try a BMS or Beyma CP380M in a tractrix or conical flare. Most of the commercially available pro flares really suck, and until you compare the driver in something better, you can't know how it will sound. For eample, people will tell you the K77 in a Khorn is bad. Now whilst it's not the greatest driver in the world, putting it on a decent flare makes an order of magnitude type difference.mpmarino said:
Harshness in horn loaded devices has been my p-asion for more years than I care to admit. For a discussion of how I have solved this see my web site www.gedlee.com.
It is possible to get the dynamics that you heard with the smoothness of a high end system - the best of both worlds. See how its done.
Pro drivers seem to have a response that is not very flat! I wonder how you can deal with this ...
The Adire He kits interest me for a few reasons:
* xo designed already
* flat response
* coax driver which I would expect to be great for imaging
as well as all the other reasons for using HE drivers
Personally, the look and style of the system is very important. This is a big issue for me, however I think grilles can go a long way and you can probably make HE drivers look good if you are clever and inventive.
I have often tossed up the idea of hifi vs PA drivers for high efficiency and output. If you use arrays of lower cost hifi drivers I wonder if you can get the same result as far as efficiency and output goes. Good HE drivers have always seemed expensive.
The Adire He kits interest me for a few reasons:
* xo designed already
* flat response
* coax driver which I would expect to be great for imaging
as well as all the other reasons for using HE drivers
Personally, the look and style of the system is very important. This is a big issue for me, however I think grilles can go a long way and you can probably make HE drivers look good if you are clever and inventive.
I have often tossed up the idea of hifi vs PA drivers for high efficiency and output. If you use arrays of lower cost hifi drivers I wonder if you can get the same result as far as efficiency and output goes. Good HE drivers have always seemed expensive.
As an earlier poster said, it's the frequency extremes.
Here's a chance to put your money where your mouth is. Design and build a "pro" cabinet that's flat to 15Hz. Actually, I'm feeling generous (just watched a version of Dickens's Christmas Carol), so I'll make it easy on you--20Hz.
Don't give me simulations. You're got to build an actual, living, breathing cabinet and measure it. Why? Because the simulations lie. Those pretty, smooth lines that roll off down at 20Hz don't exist in the real world. Don't believe me? Build it and measure it before you argue. T-S simulations are seriously, woefully inacccurate.
What you'll find is that your soi-disant 20Hz cabinet is lucky to make it to 35Hz, and don't be surprised if it's closer to 50Hz. I repeat: Don't argue with me, build and measure. The real world is a harsh task master and T-S simulations are not much more than fantasy.
Can you fiddle the low end with EQ? Yes, but then you're introducing phase shift, etc. Deep bass and high efficiency are not to be found in the same place at the same time. You can have one or the other, but not both. Your best bet with high efficiency drivers is midrange. That's where they'll shine. That and durability--they can take punishment and come up smiling.
Grey
Here's a chance to put your money where your mouth is. Design and build a "pro" cabinet that's flat to 15Hz. Actually, I'm feeling generous (just watched a version of Dickens's Christmas Carol), so I'll make it easy on you--20Hz.
Don't give me simulations. You're got to build an actual, living, breathing cabinet and measure it. Why? Because the simulations lie. Those pretty, smooth lines that roll off down at 20Hz don't exist in the real world. Don't believe me? Build it and measure it before you argue. T-S simulations are seriously, woefully inacccurate.
What you'll find is that your soi-disant 20Hz cabinet is lucky to make it to 35Hz, and don't be surprised if it's closer to 50Hz. I repeat: Don't argue with me, build and measure. The real world is a harsh task master and T-S simulations are not much more than fantasy.
Can you fiddle the low end with EQ? Yes, but then you're introducing phase shift, etc. Deep bass and high efficiency are not to be found in the same place at the same time. You can have one or the other, but not both. Your best bet with high efficiency drivers is midrange. That's where they'll shine. That and durability--they can take punishment and come up smiling.
Grey
I am of the pro driver high efficiency school also. The well designed high efficiency system can provide an unrestrained ease and flow due to the headroom afforded, along with realistic impact and startling dynamics. With the right set-up tone can be very natural, too. No contest for me. All this brings the listener closer to the live event.
As a kid, I grew up storming off to the movies on Saturdays, and all those hours must have left an indelible mark. I still like the big Altec Voice of the Theater sound. Although it may be improved upon these days with some work, particularly on the frequency extremes, there are few commercial hi-fi products that I would substitute.
Earl's work intrigues me. The compression driver is a double edged sword. As good as they can get, they can also go south in a hurry, too. With the wrong horn, improper crossover, or too much bandwidth things can get ugly, so anything that can improve on the driver/horn marriage is great by me. So, Earl, thanks for the revelations recently, and wish you well in future work.
BTW, I tried the foam trick, and though I probably didn't have the right density/porosity (air conditioner foam), it did make quite an audible difference.
Tim
As a kid, I grew up storming off to the movies on Saturdays, and all those hours must have left an indelible mark. I still like the big Altec Voice of the Theater sound. Although it may be improved upon these days with some work, particularly on the frequency extremes, there are few commercial hi-fi products that I would substitute.
Earl's work intrigues me. The compression driver is a double edged sword. As good as they can get, they can also go south in a hurry, too. With the wrong horn, improper crossover, or too much bandwidth things can get ugly, so anything that can improve on the driver/horn marriage is great by me. So, Earl, thanks for the revelations recently, and wish you well in future work.
BTW, I tried the foam trick, and though I probably didn't have the right density/porosity (air conditioner foam), it did make quite an audible difference.
Tim
Horn Sub
GRollins,
I haven't done 20 Hz flat but I know people who have with a bass horn of some size. I can get to mid-thirties at about -5 dB, dropping to -10 at cut-off of 28 Hz.
Distortion is laughably low above cut-off.
Cost of was about $175 total plus the plate amp. Around 125 dB at 80 Hz, maybe higher.
This horn isn't really about quantity, though it is kinda fun, it was really intended for the quality of bass. So, while it is possible to go to 20 Hz, even into the teens, I don't really see the need.
Steve Schell (often posts at Audio Asylum) built a horn sub that has output below 20 Hz.
Tim
GRollins,
I haven't done 20 Hz flat but I know people who have with a bass horn of some size. I can get to mid-thirties at about -5 dB, dropping to -10 at cut-off of 28 Hz.
Distortion is laughably low above cut-off.
Cost of was about $175 total plus the plate amp. Around 125 dB at 80 Hz, maybe higher.
This horn isn't really about quantity, though it is kinda fun, it was really intended for the quality of bass. So, while it is possible to go to 20 Hz, even into the teens, I don't really see the need.
Steve Schell (often posts at Audio Asylum) built a horn sub that has output below 20 Hz.
Tim
Attachments
Konnichiwa,
"HiFi" Drivers also often seem to have a response that is not very flat, so what? If you review the datasheet you must understand the conditions under which the curves where taken and how much smoothing was applied etc. Most Pro Drivers are not flat but are designed to offer easy equalisability, hence they usually show smooth rolloffs at the top for compression drivers and towards lower frequencies, maximum efficiency tends to be in the midrange where most of the ower in music is concentrated.
How about soffit fitting them into a wall. If you can afford to loose 1m depth of your listening room you can make a HUGE cabinet.
Using many small drivers can give similar results, but you must be aware that drivers behave only as line source tup to a certain frequency, determined by the distance between driver centers and the pistonic range of the drivers. Many problems to solve and once you get dozends of reasonable quality HiFi Drivers the cost for some big Pro Drivers will appear modest.
Well, I don't have to, Stig Eric Tangen already did so, using the JBL2226 15" Pro Woofer, I might add that this is not a particulary extreme woofer (for Pro Audio Systems), merely average good engineering.....
The Almighty Subwoofer
Hmmm, to speak with Sportin' Life "It ain't neccesarily so".
On the contrary actually. A Speaker is a so-called Minimum phase system, meaning the phaseshift with frequency is tied in with the shift in level with frequency. Correctly equalised using minimum phase electrical filters (and again, unless the filter is way overly complex it will be minimum phase) will provide a inverse phase and frequency response and will thus lead to a near phasecoherent system after being combined.
Deep Bass and High Efficiency are very readily found in the same place, but it is not within a small enclosure. I am quite familiar with some bass Horns that if stacked into a sufficiently large array (4pcs stacked) produce as array and with a modicum of EQ very low reaching bass.
Without EQ you get from a 4pcs stack 110db/1W/1m with a halvespace (on floor, freefield otherwise) -3db point of 28Hz, when using a rear will against which the horns are backed both sensitivity rises and the LF corner goes down.
I have used these perviously in sound reinforcement applications and can attest that the performance is real and that a 4pcs stack can be equalised sucessfully to < 20Hz without significant loss of headroom when used against a rear wall....
Oh yes, the Subwoofer system in question is the servodrive basstech seven.
Sayonara
paulspencer said:
"HiFi" Drivers also often seem to have a response that is not very flat, so what? If you review the datasheet you must understand the conditions under which the curves where taken and how much smoothing was applied etc. Most Pro Drivers are not flat but are designed to offer easy equalisability, hence they usually show smooth rolloffs at the top for compression drivers and towards lower frequencies, maximum efficiency tends to be in the midrange where most of the ower in music is concentrated.
paulspencer said:
How about soffit fitting them into a wall. If you can afford to loose 1m depth of your listening room you can make a HUGE cabinet.
paulspencer said:
Using many small drivers can give similar results, but you must be aware that drivers behave only as line source tup to a certain frequency, determined by the distance between driver centers and the pistonic range of the drivers. Many problems to solve and once you get dozends of reasonable quality HiFi Drivers the cost for some big Pro Drivers will appear modest.
GRollins said:
Well, I don't have to, Stig Eric Tangen already did so, using the JBL2226 15" Pro Woofer, I might add that this is not a particulary extreme woofer (for Pro Audio Systems), merely average good engineering.....
The Almighty Subwoofer
GRollins said:
Hmmm, to speak with Sportin' Life "It ain't neccesarily so".
On the contrary actually. A Speaker is a so-called Minimum phase system, meaning the phaseshift with frequency is tied in with the shift in level with frequency. Correctly equalised using minimum phase electrical filters (and again, unless the filter is way overly complex it will be minimum phase) will provide a inverse phase and frequency response and will thus lead to a near phasecoherent system after being combined.
GRollins said:
Deep Bass and High Efficiency are very readily found in the same place, but it is not within a small enclosure. I am quite familiar with some bass Horns that if stacked into a sufficiently large array (4pcs stacked) produce as array and with a modicum of EQ very low reaching bass.
Without EQ you get from a 4pcs stack 110db/1W/1m with a halvespace (on floor, freefield otherwise) -3db point of 28Hz, when using a rear will against which the horns are backed both sensitivity rises and the LF corner goes down.
I have used these perviously in sound reinforcement applications and can attest that the performance is real and that a 4pcs stack can be equalised sucessfully to < 20Hz without significant loss of headroom when used against a rear wall....
Oh yes, the Subwoofer system in question is the servodrive basstech seven.
Sayonara
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