hello
back to my idea of designing a two way with a 6-7" woofer and a ribbon tweeter.
living in france, and knowing budget IS an issue, i would want to buy all in paris, or all in the same store if it is in america.
I want to have the highest sensivity versus bass extension.
i considered the PHL 1220, but as 70 hz - 3db is not sufficient, and as dont want to design a horn because is think it's beyond my capabilities i found two other alternatives :
i consider two options: -FOCAL 6K4411B (90db sensivity) with fountek JP3 ribbon (bought via zalytron, it give a very good overall price). the 6k4411 extends down to 55hz -3Db into Winisd.
-Aurum cantus AC-180F1 woofer (90db sensivity too) with ac G2si .the AC180-F1 extends down to 50 Hz -3db into Winisd. (the price is almost the same as the first option, with the drivers bought to E-speakers)
In the two cases i think the XO frequency would be about 2.5 khz, but i would like to test an higher frequency XO, like 3khz (im using DIY active XO). in this respect the AC-180F1 looks better.
I prefer the frequency graph of the AC-180F1, and like the fact that it go a little lower.
On the other side i read strictly NOTHING about Aurum cantus woofers, and am in the possiblity to find any information on them.
i like the yellow colour of focal drivers
,and it seems to be a little faster driver than the Aurum cantus (slightly better BL*SD/mms ratio)
the ribbons seems to be similar, so my main concern is the woofers, and i would be very pleased if anyone had any information and recomendations. im also open to alternatives, but it should be dispo at a store who sells the ribbons at a decent price, and considering i dont want to go higher than 100$ (and this is a big maximum)
thank you very much !
back to my idea of designing a two way with a 6-7" woofer and a ribbon tweeter.
living in france, and knowing budget IS an issue, i would want to buy all in paris, or all in the same store if it is in america.
I want to have the highest sensivity versus bass extension.
i considered the PHL 1220, but as 70 hz - 3db is not sufficient, and as dont want to design a horn because is think it's beyond my capabilities i found two other alternatives :
i consider two options: -FOCAL 6K4411B (90db sensivity) with fountek JP3 ribbon (bought via zalytron, it give a very good overall price). the 6k4411 extends down to 55hz -3Db into Winisd.
-Aurum cantus AC-180F1 woofer (90db sensivity too) with ac G2si .the AC180-F1 extends down to 50 Hz -3db into Winisd. (the price is almost the same as the first option, with the drivers bought to E-speakers)
In the two cases i think the XO frequency would be about 2.5 khz, but i would like to test an higher frequency XO, like 3khz (im using DIY active XO). in this respect the AC-180F1 looks better.
I prefer the frequency graph of the AC-180F1, and like the fact that it go a little lower.
On the other side i read strictly NOTHING about Aurum cantus woofers, and am in the possiblity to find any information on them.
i like the yellow colour of focal drivers
,and it seems to be a little faster driver than the Aurum cantus (slightly better BL*SD/mms ratio)the ribbons seems to be similar, so my main concern is the woofers, and i would be very pleased if anyone had any information and recomendations. im also open to alternatives, but it should be dispo at a store who sells the ribbons at a decent price, and considering i dont want to go higher than 100$ (and this is a big maximum)
thank you very much !
I tried for a while to run an aurum cantus G3 with a PHL 8520 mid and never really was that happy with it. The sonic signatures were too different, among other issues. The G3's match my Focal 8C perfectly. So, I would have to say that the focals are a good bet.
Personally, I would lean toward a curvilinear coned plain coated paper model or maybe a 'polyglass'. These are designated xxxxC or xxxxV. The 7C sold at zalytron looks promising to me. The kevlar 6411B's breakup modes start right around your proposed crossover point, and could be audible. Crossing a ribbon is difficult, and I wouldn't want anything to make it harder. I'd be cautious with a synthetic cone material. It could be OK though, the driver looks well behaved. You pay your money and take your chances...
I know nothing of the AC woofers. A smaller driver will likely make things easier. They look pretty good on paper.
Oh, one more drive to look at. The 'access' 5B looks extremely smooth and wideband, which should make integration easier. Plus the highs are shelved down just perfectly at around 800 hz so that BSC could likely be ignored. IOW it should work with a textbook crossover. Lower efficiency though.
GB
Personally, I would lean toward a curvilinear coned plain coated paper model or maybe a 'polyglass'. These are designated xxxxC or xxxxV. The 7C sold at zalytron looks promising to me. The kevlar 6411B's breakup modes start right around your proposed crossover point, and could be audible. Crossing a ribbon is difficult, and I wouldn't want anything to make it harder. I'd be cautious with a synthetic cone material. It could be OK though, the driver looks well behaved. You pay your money and take your chances...
I know nothing of the AC woofers. A smaller driver will likely make things easier. They look pretty good on paper.
Oh, one more drive to look at. The 'access' 5B looks extremely smooth and wideband, which should make integration easier. Plus the highs are shelved down just perfectly at around 800 hz so that BSC could likely be ignored. IOW it should work with a textbook crossover. Lower efficiency though.
GB
greg B: Yes, it's what i thought about the 4411B, in fact i'm really attracted by the AC woofers, but i would really like to have comments on them, even on the publiched specs, as i'm pretty newbie, some precision would be great.
what do you mean when you say that a ribbon is difficult to cross ? what are the difficulties, keeping in mind that i use active Xover ?
as i have not bad skills in Electronics, i could design a notch filter if necessary, but it's sure that the easier the better ...
will look to the 7C, thanks !
what do you mean when you say that a ribbon is difficult to cross ? what are the difficulties, keeping in mind that i use active Xover ?
as i have not bad skills in Electronics, i could design a notch filter if necessary, but it's sure that the easier the better ...
will look to the 7C, thanks !
I mean that it is hard to make the two different drivers sound as one. An active crossover with a steep slope may make this even harder. The G3/PHL with a well regarded active crossover sounded like a jumble of different drivers with different sonic signatures. Many woofers just plain won't sound good with it.
Ribbons have a unique radiation pattern, and really do not want to go as low as is usually claimed. Despite this, you must often cross over on the low side for the patterns to match reasonably well, IME. A mid/bass with wide bandwidth makes all of this easier: IOW, one with clean uncolored response at least one octave beyond the crossover.
Well done, a ribbon is somewhat laid back and slightly 'airy' sounding, with extreme detail. Badly implemented, they can sound harsh and edgy.
Also, don't forget the baffle step. You will either need to implement an active filter for this, or use a woofer with drooping response, like the focal 5B I suggested. BTW, I think those may be 10-12 ohm, so you could use 2 per side in an MTM.
I'd presume that the AC woofers would sound good with AC ribbons. They haven't been available for very long, so don't expect to get much feedback. You may have to risk it.
Ribbons have a unique radiation pattern, and really do not want to go as low as is usually claimed. Despite this, you must often cross over on the low side for the patterns to match reasonably well, IME. A mid/bass with wide bandwidth makes all of this easier: IOW, one with clean uncolored response at least one octave beyond the crossover.
Well done, a ribbon is somewhat laid back and slightly 'airy' sounding, with extreme detail. Badly implemented, they can sound harsh and edgy.
Also, don't forget the baffle step. You will either need to implement an active filter for this, or use a woofer with drooping response, like the focal 5B I suggested. BTW, I think those may be 10-12 ohm, so you could use 2 per side in an MTM.
I'd presume that the AC woofers would sound good with AC ribbons.
They haven't been available for very long, so don't expect to get much feedback. You may have to risk it.thank you much greg for explaining, about baffle step i think i'm gonna go for active EQ, since i the access 5B appears to need a big box (30 liters in SC4 alignment) and is not sufficiently efficient. a MTM would have been great, but it would neet aprox. 70 liters, wich is way too big for my room.
anyway, i think i like the idea of "risking" it with the AC
if i can't get feedback on the driver, on a theoretical basis, what do you think of this freq. curve , if it is exact ?
anyway, i think i like the idea of "risking" it with the AC
if i can't get feedback on the driver, on a theoretical basis, what do you think of this freq. curve , if it is exact ?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That looks pretty good, though the main breakup is pretty close to your crossover point. The little peak at 1khz may actually be audible.
You might be able to kill two birds with one stone by putting the pole for the BSC filter around 7-800 (which would be typical), and then starting your crossover filter around 2.5khz. I don't have much experience with active XO design though. A typical passive filter for that might consist of an inductor of about 1.5mH, and a series notch filter to shape the Q of that 3khz peak into a smooth 3rd order rolloff (or whatever).
Sure, I can see that. You could be the first kid on your block to try them.
If you're set on AC/ fountek drive units, bear in mind that Madisound (i think) has the fountek tweets on special... and, read no further.
Otherwise, and since you live in Paris why not pop over to Hautparleur systemes at the 17th and take a look at Supravox 215 or 285 (+95db sens). You never know, maybe there's a reduced price used /demo pair there for the taking...
As I;ve never heard the AC I can't vouch for this, but from specs I'd expect the Supra to outperform the AC. Cheers
Otherwise, and since you live in Paris why not pop over to Hautparleur systemes at the 17th and take a look at Supravox 215 or 285 (+95db sens). You never know, maybe there's a reduced price used /demo pair there for the taking...
As I;ve never heard the AC I can't vouch for this, but from specs I'd expect the Supra to outperform the AC. Cheers
i found a woofer that seems to be very good for my needs: the monacor SPH-165KEP
one advantage is that i can buy them just near home, and then reduce the expedition costs.
moreover,looking at the freq graph, it seems like it wouldn't need baffle compensation or any notch,and it is 89 Db efficient.considering its price i event could an MTM with it ,and it appears like i could cross it at 3khz with a 12db without any problem.
am i wrong ?
any advice on this wonderfully looking driver ?
one advantage is that i can buy them just near home, and then reduce the expedition costs.
moreover,looking at the freq graph, it seems like it wouldn't need baffle compensation or any notch,and it is 89 Db efficient.considering its price i event could an MTM with it ,and it appears like i could cross it at 3khz with a 12db without any problem.
am i wrong ?
any advice on this wonderfully looking driver ?
Well, Bob Stout gives it a hearty recommendation in the LDSG.
Monacor recommendation
Oh, sorry, it's sort of an american slang expression. I doubt you would have learned it in english class. Toys were once advertised to kids with that line. So now we joke about it when talking about our new toys...
One other idea: have you thought about using one of those new digital crossover/EQ's - like the behringer? That would make things a lot easier than soldering opamps. I guess I'm lazy.
GB
Monacor recommendation
Oh, sorry, it's sort of an american slang expression. I doubt you would have learned it in english class.
Toys were once advertised to kids with that line. So now we joke about it when talking about our new toys...One other idea: have you thought about using one of those new digital crossover/EQ's - like the behringer? That would make things a lot easier than soldering opamps. I guess I'm lazy.
GB
yeah sure i could look to them, but making a filter by myself is almost costless, + i like soldering opamps, and i'm actually building the four amps for the speaker we're talking about
no offense with the "kid" word, i did know the meaning, but it's fun to play with a little. anyway i'm 19 years old, so i'm a kid in many respects
no offense with the "kid" word, i did know the meaning, but it's fun to play with a little. anyway i'm 19 years old, so i'm a kid in many respects
Actually I cannot help you about how the SPH-165KEP mates with ribbons.
Just buiding a two-way standmount with Monacor SPH-165KEP and Hiquphon OWI
Both drivers behave well regarding the crossover, passiv 2th order Bessel at 3kHz works fine. No notch filter, just a Zobel for the 165KEP.
Yes, the 165KEP does not need BS compensation, the 89dB/W sensitivity is true at low frequencies, at the crossover point it is only around 85.
Ati
Just buiding a two-way standmount with Monacor SPH-165KEP and Hiquphon OWI
Both drivers behave well regarding the crossover, passiv 2th order Bessel at 3kHz works fine. No notch filter, just a Zobel for the 165KEP.
Yes, the 165KEP does not need BS compensation, the 89dB/W sensitivity is true at low frequencies, at the crossover point it is only around 85.
Ati
My prototype box with the SPH-165KEP is working for 6-8 weeks now, I changed the tweeter only couple of days before. I have only one box so I'm listening to music in mono now, no opinion about the stereo image, depth and similar terms...
What I hear is very promising, that's why I decided to buy a pair of Hiquphon OWI tweeter, I thougth this unit deserve a better tweeter than my original Monacor DT-25N.
Ati
What I hear is very promising, that's why I decided to buy a pair of Hiquphon OWI tweeter, I thougth this unit deserve a better tweeter than my original Monacor DT-25N.
Ati
The problem with the AC unit (woofer) is that it has a nasty breakup at about 1.5k. Dont be fooled by the frequency response diagram, look at the impedance plot. If you see at 1.5k there is a wiggle in the impedance, this highlights breakup and it would be interesting to see a waterfall plot, I wouldnt mind betting that there is a strong ridge at 1.5k, which is what you want to avoid.
I have looked at a few of the AC woofers and they all seem to exhibit this same thing.
The monacor SPH130AL, also displays this, but like the SEAS W15CY001 magnesium cone, is at about 8khz. Which is less of a problem, but will require a notch filter because at resonance the cone releases a lot of stored energy and thus has a peak.
The kevlar monacor looks like a nice unit, it has a very flat frequency response and can play quite high. It also does not have that wiggle in the impedance which is always a good sign.
But then there are the standard tried and tested woofers of high praise and good design.
Such as..
From peerless, The HDS 850488 and the HDS 850439. The 850439 Apogee use in one of the their speakers which is a 2.5way with a ribbon tweeter.
From vifa you have the XT woofers, and the PL line.
Then from SEAS you have the L15RLY/P and the L18RNX/P, if you want an aluminium cone. Then you have the CA15RLY and the CA18RLY if you want a paper cone.
If you want the best bass then you want a 6.5" driver, the peerless 439 if anything like its partner the 467 (they are identical but the 67 has a phase plug) then it will rock the house. It produces huge bass for its size.
The 6.5" SEAS alu cone is nice because its got a really high break up of about 7k for a 6.5" driver. But through the pass band it is completely free from breakup and should sound wonderful, but will require additional attention to filter out that res peak.
If I were you, because you are using a ribbon, id use the L18RNX/P and cross over at about 3khz with 4th order acoustic slopes, with a notch filter at about 7k to remove the peak. I am partial to metal cones because they are so free sounding, ribbons sound similar so a metal cone seems to go well.
Best sound for me would be the ribbon and the L18RNX/P.
The easy combo with regards to xover would be the peerless 5.5" HDS unit, its flat as a ruler so should make xover design easy, especially as you are using active crossovers.
A well designed Poly cone is a breeze to work with, alu cones are harder, but gernerally will sound better, if they are used well.
I have looked at a few of the AC woofers and they all seem to exhibit this same thing.
The monacor SPH130AL, also displays this, but like the SEAS W15CY001 magnesium cone, is at about 8khz. Which is less of a problem, but will require a notch filter because at resonance the cone releases a lot of stored energy and thus has a peak.
The kevlar monacor looks like a nice unit, it has a very flat frequency response and can play quite high. It also does not have that wiggle in the impedance which is always a good sign.
But then there are the standard tried and tested woofers of high praise and good design.
Such as..
From peerless, The HDS 850488 and the HDS 850439. The 850439 Apogee use in one of the their speakers which is a 2.5way with a ribbon tweeter.
From vifa you have the XT woofers, and the PL line.
Then from SEAS you have the L15RLY/P and the L18RNX/P, if you want an aluminium cone. Then you have the CA15RLY and the CA18RLY if you want a paper cone.
If you want the best bass then you want a 6.5" driver, the peerless 439 if anything like its partner the 467 (they are identical but the 67 has a phase plug) then it will rock the house. It produces huge bass for its size.
The 6.5" SEAS alu cone is nice because its got a really high break up of about 7k for a 6.5" driver. But through the pass band it is completely free from breakup and should sound wonderful, but will require additional attention to filter out that res peak.
If I were you, because you are using a ribbon, id use the L18RNX/P and cross over at about 3khz with 4th order acoustic slopes, with a notch filter at about 7k to remove the peak. I am partial to metal cones because they are so free sounding, ribbons sound similar so a metal cone seems to go well.
Best sound for me would be the ribbon and the L18RNX/P.
The easy combo with regards to xover would be the peerless 5.5" HDS unit, its flat as a ruler so should make xover design easy, especially as you are using active crossovers.
A well designed Poly cone is a breeze to work with, alu cones are harder, but gernerally will sound better, if they are used well.
Interesting and comprehensive post. Cone material must be a question of taste in the end. I've been using a B110 for mid-bass, and it has solid qualities (hence its use in BBC LS3/5). But I guess I'm following the trend to aluminium. I love the smoothness and clarity. The sound isn't so fat, but it's so clean and detailed you seem to hear into the music better, which means that musical phrases make more sense because the micro details of phrasing, attack and decay are more audible - not to mention that those incomprehensible vocals you have always tried to understand start revealing the actual words they're made up of. As the previous poster said, it's a 'ribbon' kind of sound. Hardly surprising since the material is aluminium in both cases. Kind of Apogees on the cheap!
I'd like to ask if a full range aluminium cone is going to be the answer in the future. The Jordan JXs92 is pretty close - how much more development does it take to eliminate the need for a crossover? A coaxial alu woofer/ribbon would be cute but I have no concept of how it could be achieved.
I'd like to ask if a full range aluminium cone is going to be the answer in the future. The Jordan JXs92 is pretty close - how much more development does it take to eliminate the need for a crossover? A coaxial alu woofer/ribbon would be cute but I have no concept of how it could be achieved.
Hi
I have a AriaR system using Focal mids and the Raven R1 tweeter. The design is available on the Zalytron site, and is designed by Joe D'Appollito. Sounds realy nice, is 95dB.
The Focal mids have a frame that is not perfectly circular so I had aproblem mounting them on the baffle-something you may want to bear in mind when you make your final choice.
George
I have a AriaR system using Focal mids and the Raven R1 tweeter. The design is available on the Zalytron site, and is designed by Joe D'Appollito. Sounds realy nice, is 95dB.
The Focal mids have a frame that is not perfectly circular so I had aproblem mounting them on the baffle-something you may want to bear in mind when you make your final choice.
George
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