best woofer for good quality two way : Aurum cantus or focal - diyAudio
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Old 28th November 2004, 04:39 PM   #1
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Default best woofer for good quality two way : Aurum cantus or focal

hello
back to my idea of designing a two way with a 6-7" woofer and a ribbon tweeter.
living in france, and knowing budget IS an issue, i would want to buy all in paris, or all in the same store if it is in america.
I want to have the highest sensivity versus bass extension.
i considered the PHL 1220, but as 70 hz - 3db is not sufficient, and as dont want to design a horn because is think it's beyond my capabilities i found two other alternatives :
i consider two options: -FOCAL 6K4411B (90db sensivity) with fountek JP3 ribbon (bought via zalytron, it give a very good overall price). the 6k4411 extends down to 55hz -3Db into Winisd.
-Aurum cantus AC-180F1 woofer (90db sensivity too) with ac G2si .the AC180-F1 extends down to 50 Hz -3db into Winisd. (the price is almost the same as the first option, with the drivers bought to E-speakers)

In the two cases i think the XO frequency would be about 2.5 khz, but i would like to test an higher frequency XO, like 3khz (im using DIY active XO). in this respect the AC-180F1 looks better.
I prefer the frequency graph of the AC-180F1, and like the fact that it go a little lower.
On the other side i read strictly NOTHING about Aurum cantus woofers, and am in the possiblity to find any information on them.
i like the yellow colour of focal drivers ,and it seems to be a little faster driver than the Aurum cantus (slightly better BL*SD/mms ratio)
the ribbons seems to be similar, so my main concern is the woofers, and i would be very pleased if anyone had any information and recomendations. im also open to alternatives, but it should be dispo at a store who sells the ribbons at a decent price, and considering i dont want to go higher than 100$ (and this is a big maximum)

thank you very much !
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Old 28th November 2004, 07:05 PM   #2
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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I tried for a while to run an aurum cantus G3 with a PHL 8520 mid and never really was that happy with it. The sonic signatures were too different, among other issues. The G3's match my Focal 8C perfectly. So, I would have to say that the focals are a good bet.

Personally, I would lean toward a curvilinear coned plain coated paper model or maybe a 'polyglass'. These are designated xxxxC or xxxxV. The 7C sold at zalytron looks promising to me. The kevlar 6411B's breakup modes start right around your proposed crossover point, and could be audible. Crossing a ribbon is difficult, and I wouldn't want anything to make it harder. I'd be cautious with a synthetic cone material. It could be OK though, the driver looks well behaved. You pay your money and take your chances...

I know nothing of the AC woofers. A smaller driver will likely make things easier. They look pretty good on paper.

Oh, one more drive to look at. The 'access' 5B looks extremely smooth and wideband, which should make integration easier. Plus the highs are shelved down just perfectly at around 800 hz so that BSC could likely be ignored. IOW it should work with a textbook crossover. Lower efficiency though.

GB
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Old 28th November 2004, 07:52 PM   #3
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greg B: Yes, it's what i thought about the 4411B, in fact i'm really attracted by the AC woofers, but i would really like to have comments on them, even on the publiched specs, as i'm pretty newbie, some precision would be great.
what do you mean when you say that a ribbon is difficult to cross ? what are the difficulties, keeping in mind that i use active Xover ?
as i have not bad skills in Electronics, i could design a notch filter if necessary, but it's sure that the easier the better ...
will look to the 7C, thanks !
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Old 28th November 2004, 08:23 PM   #4
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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I mean that it is hard to make the two different drivers sound as one. An active crossover with a steep slope may make this even harder. The G3/PHL with a well regarded active crossover sounded like a jumble of different drivers with different sonic signatures. Many woofers just plain won't sound good with it.

Ribbons have a unique radiation pattern, and really do not want to go as low as is usually claimed. Despite this, you must often cross over on the low side for the patterns to match reasonably well, IME. A mid/bass with wide bandwidth makes all of this easier: IOW, one with clean uncolored response at least one octave beyond the crossover.

Well done, a ribbon is somewhat laid back and slightly 'airy' sounding, with extreme detail. Badly implemented, they can sound harsh and edgy.

Also, don't forget the baffle step. You will either need to implement an active filter for this, or use a woofer with drooping response, like the focal 5B I suggested. BTW, I think those may be 10-12 ohm, so you could use 2 per side in an MTM.

I'd presume that the AC woofers would sound good with AC ribbons. They haven't been available for very long, so don't expect to get much feedback. You may have to risk it.
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Old 28th November 2004, 10:28 PM   #5
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thank you much greg for explaining, about baffle step i think i'm gonna go for active EQ, since i the access 5B appears to need a big box (30 liters in SC4 alignment) and is not sufficiently efficient. a MTM would have been great, but it would neet aprox. 70 liters, wich is way too big for my room.
anyway, i think i like the idea of "risking" it with the AC

if i can't get feedback on the driver, on a theoretical basis, what do you think of this freq. curve , if it is exact ?
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 28th November 2004, 11:03 PM   #6
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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Quote:
if i can't get feedback on the driver, on a theoretical basis, what do you think of this freq. curve , if it is exact
That looks pretty good, though the main breakup is pretty close to your crossover point. The little peak at 1khz may actually be audible.

You might be able to kill two birds with one stone by putting the pole for the BSC filter around 7-800 (which would be typical), and then starting your crossover filter around 2.5khz. I don't have much experience with active XO design though. A typical passive filter for that might consist of an inductor of about 1.5mH, and a series notch filter to shape the Q of that 3khz peak into a smooth 3rd order rolloff (or whatever).


Quote:
i think i like the idea of "risking" it with the AC
Sure, I can see that. You could be the first kid on your block to try them.
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Old 29th November 2004, 08:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Sure, I can see that. You could be the first kid on your block to try them.
yeah sure i'm a kid , how did you know that

anyway thank you very much for this useful info

any other feedbadk about crossing this AC driver with the AC G2Si ? maybe from peoplehaving experience with active filtering ?
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Old 29th November 2004, 11:23 AM   #8
Gregm is offline Gregm  Europe
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If you're set on AC/ fountek drive units, bear in mind that Madisound (i think) has the fountek tweets on special... and, read no further.

Otherwise, and since you live in Paris why not pop over to Hautparleur systemes at the 17th and take a look at Supravox 215 or 285 (+95db sens). You never know, maybe there's a reduced price used /demo pair there for the taking...
As I;ve never heard the AC I can't vouch for this, but from specs I'd expect the Supra to outperform the AC. Cheers
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Old 29th November 2004, 02:23 PM   #9
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i found a woofer that seems to be very good for my needs: the monacor SPH-165KEP
one advantage is that i can buy them just near home, and then reduce the expedition costs.
moreover,looking at the freq graph, it seems like it wouldn't need baffle compensation or any notch,and it is 89 Db efficient.considering its price i event could an MTM with it ,and it appears like i could cross it at 3khz with a 12db without any problem.
am i wrong ?
any advice on this wonderfully looking driver ?
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Old 29th November 2004, 06:58 PM   #10
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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Well, Bob Stout gives it a hearty recommendation in the LDSG.

Monacor recommendation


Quote:
"You could be the first kid on your block to try them."

yeah sure i'm a kid , how did you know that
Oh, sorry, it's sort of an american slang expression. I doubt you would have learned it in english class. Toys were once advertised to kids with that line. So now we joke about it when talking about our new toys...

One other idea: have you thought about using one of those new digital crossover/EQ's - like the behringer? That would make things a lot easier than soldering opamps. I guess I'm lazy.

GB
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