Bdlitzer, thank you very much for telling about your experiences! I catch every word you say. Despite some strange (by dipole theory) solutions they must give ultimately wonderful sound, when positioning and the room are proper for it.
This difficulty to make speakers fit the room and sound right comes mainly from the dispersion characterics being uneven. This is a problem for many large high-end fullrange speakers. It is very difficult to combine high directivity, high output with low distortion and short listening distance, less than 10' (3m). I do not have proof but I believe that eg. Linkwitz LX521 and Kreskowsky's Nao Note have high distortion when played at home theater or rock club sound levels. They are not even meant for that.
Here is a cardioid speaker that obviously can produce lots of clean sound too! By Kimmosto but not documented on his website DIY Loudspeakers Kimmo Saunisto
This difficulty to make speakers fit the room and sound right comes mainly from the dispersion characterics being uneven. This is a problem for many large high-end fullrange speakers. It is very difficult to combine high directivity, high output with low distortion and short listening distance, less than 10' (3m). I do not have proof but I believe that eg. Linkwitz LX521 and Kreskowsky's Nao Note have high distortion when played at home theater or rock club sound levels. They are not even meant for that.
Here is a cardioid speaker that obviously can produce lots of clean sound too! By Kimmosto but not documented on his website DIY Loudspeakers Kimmo Saunisto
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Regarding Marketing speak comment:
It does work and I theoretically agree with the theories, but I view it as marketing talk because while the design of the speaker aims to reduce room interaction, it does not over-ride the realities of physics. No speaker does. The assertions that the side nulls allow the speaker to interact less with the room and allow them to be placed closer to the wall is not reality. In truth, since it is a dipole, it interacts much more with the room and requires much more careful placement than a box. The side nulls they talk about, I do not see it in my home. Maybe it’s my room… I have put up sidewall reflection point absorbers and it has made the sound much better. I find the nulls on the side of the Whisper to be about the same as the off-axis response of regular speakers. The nulls on the side of a Martin Logan or a Magnepan design are multiple times as large - yet they don't claim the whole cartiod thing and reduced interaction with the room – even though the could with more credibility that the Whispers. People who have dealt with the challenges of really dialing in dipole speakers know what I am talking about.
They have toned it down a bit on their webiste, but they say things like this:
"The sweet spot is much wider with the Whisper XDS design, allowing the listener to move outside the left speaker and still hear a balance with the right speaker, and vice versa. The manual recommends a strong toe-in, to cast the strongest acoustic shadow across the face. It explains that the imprint of the shadow of the nose into the opposite ear is the other portion of the stereo signal that is usually washed out by excessive room reflections with conventional speakers."
The sweet spot is wider for 2 reasons 1) because they recommend so much toe-in(cross in front of your face) and 2) dipole radiation. If you use that much toe in, parts of the image(especially frequencies above the baffle step frequency) actually shifts left when you move your head right because of the toe-in crossing in front of your face. This is an old Bose trick. Bose puts extra tweeters that crossed over in front of the viewer so that you could hear both speakers regardless of where you were. I don't want to hear both speakers. I want to hear no speakers - sound should just seem to come from the front of the room as if by magic. The Whispers give you that from the sweet spot. I have found that even with omnidirectional speakers like MBL - it is still infinitely better to be in the sweet spot.
Holy Crap, I talk too much.
Anyway, if I use little or no toe-in with the Whispers, I get a similar sweet spot to other dipoles and conventional speakers.
My point is 3 things:
1) Legacy would be better served by talking about how they have gotten all those drivers to work together as one than talk about the speaker defying physics. Also people are concerned about the DSP module and how that affects the sound - they need to work on that pitch.
2) Legacy, please stop pretending you can plop these speakers down anywhere and they will sound great because they don't interact with the room like conventional speakers - That is completely false and has been born out from repeated bad placement at trade shows. I had to be much more careful in the placement of the Whispers in my home than regular boxes. I bought a laser level and a laser tape measure in order to get the speakers line up perfectly within 1/4". This really allowed the sound stage to expand and deepen(I find that dipoles allow the soundstage to deepen immensely if setup is right)
3) If you really know how sound interacts with a room - it is just not that simple, in fact it's immensely complicated. People who buy expensive speakers and many DIYs have realized it's not so simple. The marketing talk, at least for me, does not smack of reality when you hear it at trade shows and on their site. I wish they would talk less about theoretical craziness, and more about how unbelievably good these speakers sound – how the dipole sound gives you that live sound and soundstage, and how that many drivers can work together. Maybe I have just heard too many Bose commercials and am sensitive to marketing speak. I am a salesman by trade and hate to be sold on shaky foundations.
I am seeing many, many more speaker design starting to use dipole arrangements. Five years ago it was rare, now many speaker manufactures are throwing on mids and tweeters in the back. People are starting to understand how it can improve the sound. Trouble is, it does require more care in setup and not everybody’s room is a good match.
Also, I am a - everything is grey type of person. People that insist that that everything is black and white drive me nuts. My opinions are based on my experiences. You may have a different room, a sound engineers degree, different experiences with dipoles, and a different set of ears. So your mileage may vary.
Ok, I’m done talking. At this point I am almost arguing with myself.
It does work and I theoretically agree with the theories, but I view it as marketing talk because while the design of the speaker aims to reduce room interaction, it does not over-ride the realities of physics. No speaker does. The assertions that the side nulls allow the speaker to interact less with the room and allow them to be placed closer to the wall is not reality. In truth, since it is a dipole, it interacts much more with the room and requires much more careful placement than a box. The side nulls they talk about, I do not see it in my home. Maybe it’s my room… I have put up sidewall reflection point absorbers and it has made the sound much better. I find the nulls on the side of the Whisper to be about the same as the off-axis response of regular speakers. The nulls on the side of a Martin Logan or a Magnepan design are multiple times as large - yet they don't claim the whole cartiod thing and reduced interaction with the room – even though the could with more credibility that the Whispers. People who have dealt with the challenges of really dialing in dipole speakers know what I am talking about.
They have toned it down a bit on their webiste, but they say things like this:
"The sweet spot is much wider with the Whisper XDS design, allowing the listener to move outside the left speaker and still hear a balance with the right speaker, and vice versa. The manual recommends a strong toe-in, to cast the strongest acoustic shadow across the face. It explains that the imprint of the shadow of the nose into the opposite ear is the other portion of the stereo signal that is usually washed out by excessive room reflections with conventional speakers."
The sweet spot is wider for 2 reasons 1) because they recommend so much toe-in(cross in front of your face) and 2) dipole radiation. If you use that much toe in, parts of the image(especially frequencies above the baffle step frequency) actually shifts left when you move your head right because of the toe-in crossing in front of your face. This is an old Bose trick. Bose puts extra tweeters that crossed over in front of the viewer so that you could hear both speakers regardless of where you were. I don't want to hear both speakers. I want to hear no speakers - sound should just seem to come from the front of the room as if by magic. The Whispers give you that from the sweet spot. I have found that even with omnidirectional speakers like MBL - it is still infinitely better to be in the sweet spot.
Holy Crap, I talk too much.
Anyway, if I use little or no toe-in with the Whispers, I get a similar sweet spot to other dipoles and conventional speakers.
My point is 3 things:
1) Legacy would be better served by talking about how they have gotten all those drivers to work together as one than talk about the speaker defying physics. Also people are concerned about the DSP module and how that affects the sound - they need to work on that pitch.
2) Legacy, please stop pretending you can plop these speakers down anywhere and they will sound great because they don't interact with the room like conventional speakers - That is completely false and has been born out from repeated bad placement at trade shows. I had to be much more careful in the placement of the Whispers in my home than regular boxes. I bought a laser level and a laser tape measure in order to get the speakers line up perfectly within 1/4". This really allowed the sound stage to expand and deepen(I find that dipoles allow the soundstage to deepen immensely if setup is right)
3) If you really know how sound interacts with a room - it is just not that simple, in fact it's immensely complicated. People who buy expensive speakers and many DIYs have realized it's not so simple. The marketing talk, at least for me, does not smack of reality when you hear it at trade shows and on their site. I wish they would talk less about theoretical craziness, and more about how unbelievably good these speakers sound – how the dipole sound gives you that live sound and soundstage, and how that many drivers can work together. Maybe I have just heard too many Bose commercials and am sensitive to marketing speak. I am a salesman by trade and hate to be sold on shaky foundations.
I am seeing many, many more speaker design starting to use dipole arrangements. Five years ago it was rare, now many speaker manufactures are throwing on mids and tweeters in the back. People are starting to understand how it can improve the sound. Trouble is, it does require more care in setup and not everybody’s room is a good match.
Also, I am a - everything is grey type of person. People that insist that that everything is black and white drive me nuts. My opinions are based on my experiences. You may have a different room, a sound engineers degree, different experiences with dipoles, and a different set of ears. So your mileage may vary.
Ok, I’m done talking. At this point I am almost arguing with myself.
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