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Old 11th November 2004, 11:31 PM   #11
RJ is offline RJ  United States
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Another Tweeter for you to look at it.
People on the Forums call this the Meiloon Tweeter.
Apex sells them as "Shielded Soft Dome Tweeter $14.95 a pair".
http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html

They're right when they say "once you listen to line arrays, you'll never go back to boxes"..
I have a line array and it's the greatest pair of speakers I've ever heard!!!!!
Another Web Site on a bunch of woofs with one tweeter;
http://www.bottlehead.com/straight%208/straight_8.htm

http://www.bottlehead.com/valve/wham...les/page2.html

Jim Griffin got a pair he calls the "Needles" I don't have the http on that one.
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:05 AM   #12
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Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Quote:
would I be able to use the same crossover that you used in that case?
I'll tell you the values but understand that I have no measurement means to guarantee the outcome and perfomance. I will check on them tonight. The only thing I'm certain about on the crossovers is that some of these guys at diyaudio forget more than I'll ever learn. The likes of BillFitzpatrick, Bill Fitzmaurice, Timn8ter would be a great help on this. My own direction will be to build active crossovers and avoid the costly experimentation that comes with the whole passive thing. A mediocre 2nd order crossover for these costs thirty or forty bucks. At those prices, experimentation becomes expensive.

On the flip side of that coin, the experience of the line array is not to be confused with the "reference" speaker designs. I have what I would consider reference flat line speakers from JBL & Klipsch. It's not the same deal and there is no comparison to the sound character. I am certain that my line arrays are not close to flat. And, yes, I run a POS plate sub just to fill the bottom end. A new sub is part of the program, just not now.
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:08 AM   #13
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Jim Griffin's needles
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Old 12th November 2004, 03:12 AM   #14
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Using this crossover calculator I came up with...

L1=.25mH
C1=5.6uF
L2=.2mH
C2=5.1uF

for a 5000Hz crossover.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 12th November 2004, 11:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
On the flip side of that coin, the experience of the line array is not to be confused with the "reference" speaker designs. I have what I would consider reference flat line speakers from JBL & Klipsch. It's not the same deal and there is no comparison to the sound character.
OK, now I'm confused. Many of you have indicated that once you hear an open baffle speaker it would be hard to go back to boxes (I assume you mean sealed/ported designs). Please tell me that the reason for the above quote is that we're talking about a 49 cent driver here....

This is the project that I want to start out with because it will cost me next to nothing to get started. (And it turns out that's exactly how much I can spare right now... ) I know these are not going to to be 'refernce' speakers, but it should give me some experience, and a chance to listen to a new design that I've never heard before. Hopfully after this, With the appropriate budget, I'll be able to build a set which ARE reference, and DO compare favorably to the JBL's and Klipsch's - as well as my Polks.

This will likely be a slow project for me, but I will try to post my progress.
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Old 12th November 2004, 12:01 PM   #16
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An OB (dipole) line array is very easy to get results you will be impressed with. The only drawback is that you won't have bass, so you need a sub. With those drivers bass is quite difficult regardless of enclosure type.

The open natural sound of dipoles is addictive as is the huge sound of line arrays. Another advantage of dipoles for a beginner is that since everything is open, changes and tweaking are super easy.

Note that Chipco is jumping the gun on crossover values because how many drivers and how you wire them will determine your impedance which affects crossover component values. I'd recommend you start with letting the wideranges run full range and just a cap and Lpad on the tweeter(s), then go from there.
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Old 12th November 2004, 12:28 PM   #17
RJ is offline RJ  United States
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JohninCR is right.
Just start off on an OB. I just finished my MTM and compared them to my line array. There is no comparison. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The sound stage produced by the line arrays is huge and well defined. The MTM has a small one and only present when I sit directly in the center 6 feet away. If I move out of the center I lose the phantom image.
They both sound good. The MTM can be compared to reference speakers. They have Excel drivers in them and are reasonably flat across the frequency range. A little baffle step to be corrected.
Box speakers are the sealed,ported rectangular thingies.

A little ditty I wrote up on Polk speakers;

{The Day I threw away my golden ears:
One day (circa 1980) I walked into a Hi-Fi store to listen to some Infinity speakers and compare them to Polk's.
The salesman than played both of them for me. When done he asked which I liked better? I said the Polk's. He smiled and walked me to the back of the store.

He showed a Polk speaker with the guts hanging out and commented "look how cheaply made the drivers are". They were!!!
I walked out of that store, removed my golden ears and threw them away.
The Polk's did sound better.}
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Old 12th November 2004, 01:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
OK, now I'm confused. Many of you have indicated that once you hear an open baffle speaker it would be hard to go back to boxes (I assume you mean sealed/ported designs). Please tell me that the reason for the above quote is that we're talking about a 49 cent driver here....
I think there are a bunch of people who would agree that perfection is a +/- 3dB response. I don't think that I can hear that. Further, I will reiterate that I do have some "flat" response speakers. I don't listen to them anymore because my preference now excludes them to a large extent.

Go to your McIntosh dealer and listen to their .McIntosh Line Arrays . You will be able to DIY something very similar to these for fifty bucks plus wood. The Mac LA's cost $22,000. I would take the Pepsi challenge with the junk that I built. Is it the same speaker? No. Is it the same experience? Absolutely.

I agree with JohninCR that the cross is premature. On my first set I let the 4" speakers play full range and capped the tweets for protection and listened for a week or two.
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:55 PM   #19
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For planning ahead purposes, leave at least 13" of space at the bottom of your array. Unless you plan on laying on the floor to listen, you don't need it and it will leave room to add some woofers in a W configuration to fill in some bass. That's more justification for deeper wings at the bottom and angled ones for more room.

The W addition would consist of making rectangular box just big enough to be able to mount pairs of woofers. One side is open which you mate up to a hole in the bottom of the front baffle, which is the reason to leave extra space at the bottom of your baffle. Here's an example of a dipole that I added four 6" TV woofers at the bottom for bass fill and a small array with a sealed shiva at the bottom.
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Old 12th November 2004, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by chipco3434
Using this crossover calculator I came up with...

L1=.25mH
C1=5.6uF
L2=.2mH
C2=5.1uF

for a 5000Hz crossover.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I did exactly this with a 5000 Hz crossover, although I used slightly different values for a 2nd order Butterworth, and it completely killed the top end. Part of the magic of the NSBs is what they do above 5 kHz. I coated my NSBs with varnish and it smoothed out the top end sufficiently to make them quite user friendly in that range.

Try a simple cap (2 uF for a 10 kHz crossover on the Onkyos) on the tweeters (wired to 8 Ohm, otherwise adjust the cap value accordingly) to start with. If you feel you need more, then by all means spend some more money. I think you'll be able to stop here though.


Quote:
Originally posted by David_Larkins

OK, now I'm confused. Many of you have indicated that once you hear an open baffle speaker it would be hard to go back to boxes (I assume you mean sealed/ported designs). Please tell me that the reason for the above quote is that we're talking about a 49 cent driver here....

This is the project that I want to start out with because it will cost me next to nothing to get started. (And it turns out that's exactly how much I can spare right now... ) I know these are not going to to be 'refernce' speakers, but it should give me some experience, and a chance to listen to a new design that I've never heard before. Hopfully after this, With the appropriate budget, I'll be able to build a set which ARE reference, and DO compare favorably to the JBL's and Klipsch's - as well as my Polks.

This will likely be a slow project for me, but I will try to post my progress.
I know what you're thinking. How can these possibly sound any good? When I got mine (I ordered 40 to have a few extras to play with) I slapped a pair of them into a 2' x 4' sheet of MDF just to listen to in the garage while I worked on the baffles for the lines. They were surprisingly satisfying AND I heard stuff in recordings that I know like the back of my hand that I had never heard before. Detail and imaging, from a pair of 0.50 cent drivers in a sheet of wood? Oh yes. Furthermore, with this open baffle configuration the soundstage was wider than you might expect. As an example I heard a guitar playing to the left of the left speaker (well to the left). This is simply not possible with a box.

You must do this project. On the other hand you may find yourself in the situation that I'm in now. My wife thinks they're ugly. They do have a certain guy appeal that doesn't go over well with the fairer sex. After all they are seven feet tall and painted black so they sort of dominate the otherwise pleasant decor in the living room. I am currently trying to figure out how to keep them permenantly in the living room while not having to use up all my marital capital in the process. I don't enjoy sleeping on the couch!

Now go build.
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