All,
Has anyone built Linkwitz's Orion speakers with XLS12 woofers instead of XLS10 he prescribes?
I am considering building the Orions, but have read that some people feel the XLS10s are a bit limited in the lowest frequencies. First of all, is that a common understanding, or a view of the minority?
Fixing the "problem" could be done by adding subwoofers to tackle f < 40 Hz. SL proposes an XLS12-based design.
So, why not build the Orion with XLS12s from the start instead?
Has any one done this? Any lessons learned?
Thanks,
Rasmus
Has anyone built Linkwitz's Orion speakers with XLS12 woofers instead of XLS10 he prescribes?
I am considering building the Orions, but have read that some people feel the XLS10s are a bit limited in the lowest frequencies. First of all, is that a common understanding, or a view of the minority?
Fixing the "problem" could be done by adding subwoofers to tackle f < 40 Hz. SL proposes an XLS12-based design.
So, why not build the Orion with XLS12s from the start instead?
Has any one done this? Any lessons learned?
Thanks,
Rasmus
PS
PS. Of course replacing the XLS10s with XLS12s does not generate the same frequency response as keeping the XLS10s as dipole woofers and adding a XLS12 as a sealed box subwoofer, but anyway. Looking at the datasheets, the XLS12 is 2dB more sensitive @ ~110Hz, and 6dB more sensitive @ 50Hz.
PS. Of course replacing the XLS10s with XLS12s does not generate the same frequency response as keeping the XLS10s as dipole woofers and adding a XLS12 as a sealed box subwoofer, but anyway. Looking at the datasheets, the XLS12 is 2dB more sensitive @ ~110Hz, and 6dB more sensitive @ 50Hz.
IMHO A longer throw 12" driver (DPL12, AV12) would only be worthwhile in an MTM configuration (Steve Dodd's Bob is a good example). The 12" XLS shares the 10" suspension and only gains 2.5dB from the extra Sd which isn't worthwhile. A change to 12" with a same-width midrange baffle will change the polar response - narrower than the Orion's would be better. The DPL12 has more distortion than the XLS above 60Hz. Such changes would require cross-over changes. A higher Q sub-woofer driver would also preclude using a 60W amp to force amp clipping before reaching the excursion limits above 22Hz.
Excursion limited dipole output decreases at 18dB/octave below Fequal (.17c/D) which is about 150Hz in the Orion woofer section.
At xmax, the Orion woofers are good for 118dB @ 80Hz, 100dB @ 40Hz, and 82dB @ 20Hz. You get 3.5dB more if you use xsus instead. Midrange xmax limits you to 109dB @ 80Hz. This is either adequite (I built the orions and find them fine for 90dBC rock/techno and orchestral at realistic levels, etc.) or woefully insufficient (full-range reference level home theater needs 115dB for LFE and 105dB for the screen channels. Organ music may also have higher requirements).
A longer throw 12" gets you 5-6dB total. Up top this lets the woofers keep up with the 6dB output increase from a pair of midranges.
A sub-woofer gets you 6dB more output at the cross-over point (106dB with a 40Hz XO, enough to match the midrange). One XLS10 in a sealed enclosure gives you 11dB more at 20Hz in half space. Moving it to a corner gives you even more output - 12dB in theory, maybe 6dB in practice. A box woofer in a typical room gains another 5dB at 20Hz. Obviously you could use other/more drivers for even more output or less distortion.
One dipole alternative that just keeps up with the Orion midrange in the last octave would be a pair of Tumults in a 24" H-frame, costing $2K for the drivers. You could also use a Parthenon for more money. Sealed sub-woofers are less expensive, smaller, and lower distortion from the reduced excursion.
Excursion limited dipole output decreases at 18dB/octave below Fequal (.17c/D) which is about 150Hz in the Orion woofer section.
At xmax, the Orion woofers are good for 118dB @ 80Hz, 100dB @ 40Hz, and 82dB @ 20Hz. You get 3.5dB more if you use xsus instead. Midrange xmax limits you to 109dB @ 80Hz. This is either adequite (I built the orions and find them fine for 90dBC rock/techno and orchestral at realistic levels, etc.) or woefully insufficient (full-range reference level home theater needs 115dB for LFE and 105dB for the screen channels. Organ music may also have higher requirements).
A longer throw 12" gets you 5-6dB total. Up top this lets the woofers keep up with the 6dB output increase from a pair of midranges.
A sub-woofer gets you 6dB more output at the cross-over point (106dB with a 40Hz XO, enough to match the midrange). One XLS10 in a sealed enclosure gives you 11dB more at 20Hz in half space. Moving it to a corner gives you even more output - 12dB in theory, maybe 6dB in practice. A box woofer in a typical room gains another 5dB at 20Hz. Obviously you could use other/more drivers for even more output or less distortion.
One dipole alternative that just keeps up with the Orion midrange in the last octave would be a pair of Tumults in a 24" H-frame, costing $2K for the drivers. You could also use a Parthenon for more money. Sealed sub-woofers are less expensive, smaller, and lower distortion from the reduced excursion.
Re: PS
With the woofers in parallel Orion sensivity is approaching 100dB/2.83V/1 meter at the 120Hz cross-over (88dB and change + 6dB for two woofers + 6dB for half space loading -1.8 dB of dipole roll-off). You don't need more.
Down low you're excursion limited so it doesn't matter there either. The low sensitivity can even be regarded as a feature because it allows one to put together a fail-safe system (as in SL's 60W ATI amp) where you get reasonable output AND the amps clip before the woofers bottom.
rt_jensen said:
With the woofers in parallel Orion sensivity is approaching 100dB/2.83V/1 meter at the 120Hz cross-over (88dB and change + 6dB for two woofers + 6dB for half space loading -1.8 dB of dipole roll-off). You don't need more.
Down low you're excursion limited so it doesn't matter there either. The low sensitivity can even be regarded as a feature because it allows one to put together a fail-safe system (as in SL's 60W ATI amp) where you get reasonable output AND the amps clip before the woofers bottom.
Hi,
Here is a link to another Orion project.
http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_008.htm
Have fun reading
Anders
Here is a link to another Orion project.
http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_008.htm
Have fun reading
Anders
Don Maurer has the most comprehensive dipole baffle width/polar response tests I've seen here:
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/PrototypeTestResults.htm
Monte Kay has tested a bunch of potentially suitable woofers for distortion and aerodynamic noise:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/woofers.htm
John Kreskovsky has his NaO MTM with larger woofers and a passive mid/tweeter cross-over:
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/NaO.html
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/PrototypeTestResults.htm
Monte Kay has tested a bunch of potentially suitable woofers for distortion and aerodynamic noise:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/woofers.htm
John Kreskovsky has his NaO MTM with larger woofers and a passive mid/tweeter cross-over:
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/NaO.html
All interesting stuff, those measurements.
Unfortunately, I don't have neither time nor resources to do that much of DYI, that's why I have to to go with a kit/finished design.
The original question came up after seeing this
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/orion-xo-eq.gif
To me, th's a lot of bass equalization, +18dB at 20Hz, so I was just figuring if anyone had modded a kit/finished design using bigger woofers, likely also increasing the baffle size (i.e. depth of H-frame) to get same response with less eq, and in that way increasing the operating region of the speaker.
Regards
Unfortunately, I don't have neither time nor resources to do that much of DYI, that's why I have to to go with a kit/finished design.
The original question came up after seeing this
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/orion-xo-eq.gif
To me, th's a lot of bass equalization, +18dB at 20Hz, so I was just figuring if anyone had modded a kit/finished design using bigger woofers, likely also increasing the baffle size (i.e. depth of H-frame) to get same response with less eq, and in that way increasing the operating region of the speaker.
Regards
Another option might be the XXLS. With the different ranges, I'm sure one would be suitable to dipole use, probably the sealed, but I haven't run the numbers.
http://www.d-s-t.com/main/tech/xxls_intro.htm
http://www.d-s-t.com/main/tech/xxls_intro.htm
ThomasW said:
Your dipoles are beautiful, I was wondering if you ever posted any information on you XO's and construction in general for this project.
Best - Stan
I would like to say that I have used several different woofers in my system. The original PE woofer has about 10dB greater max SPL capability on axis than the Orion system. Using the TC2+ raises that to 11.5 dB greater max SPL. Using a Peerless XLS 12" in my design results in about 7.5 dB greater max SPL and finally, a single XLS 10" woofer in my U frame design still yields a max SPL 5 dB greater than the Orion's dual 10" XLS system.
Lastly, in my current system I am using a single 10" XLS in a compact U-frame which still has 2.5dB greater max SPL capability than the Orion system.
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/NaO-gallery.html
I might also suggest that you read the latest reviews, particularly the last one by Mike Barney who had the chance to listen to the NaO at both DIY NE and later in mt home.
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/NaOreview.html
Some discussion and details about this project is available here
The intent was to make a three way dipole with primarily passive crossovers, though Thomas has a set which are sort of hybrid, a combinatino of passive and active.
This set is fully passive, except a small LF EQ box, (two designs, one passive, one active) between preamp and power amp.
Crossover details at current state can be obtained by email, but a small amount of tweaking is still underway.
An earlier set was completed cosmetically, but that's also still "in progress" for this one.
I think I'll have them finished in December some time; I'm doing them in parallel with another more conventional system I started last year, but due to day job, haven't had time to finish.
Slow work takes time....
~Jon
The intent was to make a three way dipole with primarily passive crossovers, though Thomas has a set which are sort of hybrid, a combinatino of passive and active.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This set is fully passive, except a small LF EQ box, (two designs, one passive, one active) between preamp and power amp.
Crossover details at current state can be obtained by email, but a small amount of tweaking is still underway.
An earlier set was completed cosmetically, but that's also still "in progress" for this one.
I think I'll have them finished in December some time; I'm doing them in parallel with another more conventional system I started last year, but due to day job, haven't had time to finish.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Slow work takes time....
~Jon
Linkwitz Orion's design is hard to improve, replacing 10'' drivers with XLS12 is not necessary, it takes more room (bigger H Frame), same Bl for heavier cone, 12'' drivers are not as "fast" as 10'' one (on paper)
It's true that Orion's are not very good between 16 and 40 Hz ( H Frame shakes a lot and XMax is reached easily due to heavy equalization)
That's why linkwitz as a 40Hz switch on the crossover to connect a THOR subwoofer wich use the XLS12 in a sealed enclosure. Then bandwidth is great.
As I wrote, hard to improve...
It's true that Orion's are not very good between 16 and 40 Hz ( H Frame shakes a lot and XMax is reached easily due to heavy equalization)
That's why linkwitz as a 40Hz switch on the crossover to connect a THOR subwoofer wich use the XLS12 in a sealed enclosure. Then bandwidth is great.
As I wrote, hard to improve...
Sorry that the link to my speakers isn't working, try this one:
http://doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
I agree with those above that there is little point just changing the Orion bass drivers. When I did my mods to the plan, I looked at everything.
If you were going to go to different bass drivers, however, the DPL12 or even more so the TC2 would be a better choice as mentioned.
One of the advantages of using a digital crossover is that you can easily try these different things out.
Cheers
Steve
http://doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
I agree with those above that there is little point just changing the Orion bass drivers. When I did my mods to the plan, I looked at everything.
If you were going to go to different bass drivers, however, the DPL12 or even more so the TC2 would be a better choice as mentioned.
One of the advantages of using a digital crossover is that you can easily try these different things out.
Cheers
Steve
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