What makes a good classical speaker

[dvdwmth]

I've noticed that many systems seem to have difficulty reproducing orchestral music.

So what does it take to make a good classical speaker? I dont really mean what are the audible attributes of a such a speaker, but rather, what type of design and components are most suitable.


Personally, I think detail, soundstange, and the ability to create a sense of space are critical. I also crave accurate timbre since one of the great qualities of an orchestra is the varied colour and texture thats possible.

Im sure electrostatics will come up, and I have heard them do a great job on orchestral music, but I think these are to much for all but the most gung-ho diy'er. For me at least these are out.

[RJ]

Midrange, from 400Hz to 2900Hz.
Most drivers will muddy up or sound confused in this area.
The W14 Excel driver is a good one.

[cjd]

IMHO, classical demands accuracy across the frequency range even though we are most sensitive to issues in the 400hz-3kHz range. A violin, for example, goes down below 200Hz (to 196Hz). And also above 3kHz.

However, there are other issues - many (most?) of the instruments have very strong harmonic resonances which don't work right if the phase is all screwy or multiple drivers used don't mesh cleanly. Not to mention details in timbre and tone that are influenced by frequencies much higher up. Same goes for lower notes - to me, a system isn't capable if it can't at least hit the 16.35Hz pedal tones of an organ (32foot pipe). I certainly can not hear below 23hz or so based on sinewave testing and setup of my sub (which registers flat below 15hz... Gotta love IB setups). But NOT having that last octave solidly reproduced similarly changes things.

To me, speed, accuracy, clarity, coherence are all top issues, and I guess dynamics really should be in there too - a system not able to swing from finely detailed quiet passages to full bore without compressing the sound on one end or the other (or both as it seems many do) is just not going to cut it.

Soundstage and imaging are all icing on the cake. Fun and cool to have, but completely unnecessary. They're dreams of the recording engineers, and sometimes annoying. I have a wonderful recording of solo unaccompanied violin, where on certain passages the sound swings strongly to one side. WTF?! It is very distracting.

All this from someone that grew up immersed in classical music - mom was a conductor (professional choir, private chamber group/choir/orchestra) and I've personally played violin since I was three. Not to mention my dad being a one-time championship jazz musician.

I find modern rock to be the easiest to get sounding acceptable. Classical seems capable of highlighting the deficiencies in any speaker design in less time than it takes for the builders smile to turn to a look of dismay. None of my own speakers meet my expectations, for what that's worth.

C

[Hornlover]

I find that a good horn system does better than any other design I have ever used. To do a good job on orchestral music, you cant underestimate the need for dynamics. A good vented bass section (I like 6th order alignments for tight extended bass. This is not the same as a 6th order bandpass), crossing over at 500 Hz to a good compression driver, and then again after 4k to a good tweeter, will provide the listener with a very capable system, in a reasonable sized enclosure. Go here to get info on 6th order alignments. Another good design is the Jensen Imperials, either the sidewall/corner version, or the build-in. This same site may have these available in a knocked down version soon.

http://www.highefficiencyloudspeaker...Downloads.html

[dvdwmth]

Originally posted by cjd
IMHO, classical demands accuracy across the frequency range ...

C

Pretty much everything you say here makes sense to me. Question is how to get it. Do you have any thoughts on what makes up such a speaker?

I do value imaging though.

[andyjevans]

Personally, I think detail, soundstange, and the ability to create a sense of space are critical. I also crave accurate timbre since one of the great qualities of an orchestra is the varied colour and texture thats possible. >

Completely agree - I'm an ex-musician and I'd say the crucial things are:
Detail - you have to differenciate clearly all the instruments, and there may be up to 100 playing!
Timbre - it's pointless if you can't tell a basson from a cor and a french horn from a trombone.
Smoothness - good violin tone and vocals is crucial, so no resonances in the mid and treble

Less important:
Soundstage - this is mostly illusion, and can even be resonance
Bass - There's not that much down there (basses and tubas, bass trombone etc), but I agree it counts quite a lot in weight, particularly on a Steinway Grand. Less important than smooth mids and treble though - some music has little bass e.g. string quartets.

How to get it? bloody good crossover networks, smooth amps (I use tubes, but that's me), a very smooth DAC (again I use tubes), a smooth and detailed CD transport, decent cables and a mains conditioner like a large isolation transformer (like 8Amps). I think that smoothness and detail in the system goes way beyond the speaker.

[RJ]

I agree with everything the above responders have stated, but none of you have cited speaker brands that can clearly reproduce the 400 to 3khz range. From what I have read & heard there are very few speakers that can accurately reproduce this range...

[cjd]

Originally posted by RJ
I agree with everything the above responders have stated, but none of you have cited speaker brands that can clearly reproduce the 400 to 3khz range. From what I have read & heard there are very few speakers that can accurately reproduce this range...

It won't matter if it doesn't mesh well with the rest of the frequency range. Really. Well, tweeter is probably less critical if you cross around 4khz, but too much happens in the 80hz-400hz range to dismiss that out of hand - if you can't reproduce that accurately as well, you might as well give up.

I honestly can't say what does a superb job because I don't have any experience specifically with drivers that do. I think a lot of "full range" drivers nail this range wonderfully, some going even lower, especially in a horn setup. I think that is part of why some folks really like single driver horn rigs. Or just single driver rigs, or single driver plus super-tweeter... No bass is no go though. A LOT happens low. Try listening to Mahler without notes. Or Durufle. Or... 30hz low point is OK, but that last octave still makes a big difference. And that's pretty much at the loooow end of "bass" so I'm surprised anyone can claim that bass isn't important for Classical.

I will say that I find dipole/open baffle, so far, goes a looong way to giving some of the detail I crave, but the only setup I have of this type is only good for nearfield listening and has no bass to boot. It's a very very cheap driver though (plus tweeter crossed at 3800hz).

C

[dvdwmth]

I appreciate the thoughts so far but most of what has been mentioned is about the attributes a good classical speaker should have.

What i want to know is what types of designs, drivers, crossovers, etc make a good classical speaker.

For example, based on what I have been reading and the few experiments I've done on my own, I would guess that open baffles would be well suited. I have read that ribbon tweeters have a very open sound and that sounds like something that would be suitable. Some drivers seem to be aclaimed for their detail and so might be a good classical driver, whereas some other drivers with excellent reputations lack detail and so are probably better suited for other purposes.

I have no idea if TLs are particulairly suited to classical.

Im not sure about full range drivers. They seem to be popular with people who like classical but I wonder if having one driver reproducing so many instruments is a good idea.

Anyway, compared to most of the people here I have essentially no experience, so I am just stating my thoughts as an example of the kind of things I would like input on.

Thanks

[Timn8ter]

Im not sure about full range drivers. They seem to be popular with people who like classical but I wonder if having one driver reproducing so many instruments is a good idea.

There's a lot to like about FR drivers but sometimes it's like a philosophical discussion. I was listening to Berlioz on my FE207E pipes and was surprised that the instrument I heard on other speakers were actually two instruments playing together, a bassoon and a baritone from the same spot in the soundstage. We recently had a speaker building contest (very small) and the winning design was a three-way system with the Morel MDM55 mid-range that was very enjoyable to listen to. There was nothing exceptional about this design (standard BR box, 2nd order XO) other than the use of very good drivers. I'm still impressed with that Morel driver. Our club's reference system includes Lynn Olson's Ariels that do well on almost everything. I think it's important to have drivers that are light and "quick" so full-range fits as do ribbons and light large woofers that can handle tympani and bass drums. Sorry I don't have one good answer but maybe that gives you some things to consider.