Merging Pro Audio and Home Audio - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th October 2004, 03:23 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Arizona
Question Merging Pro Audio and Home Audio

Hi all.

I would like to build some speakers, but have a few questions first. I've only built one or two so far... nothing very special. I really need to get a good book on speaker design. I have one, but it's about 60 years old now... It's called "Hi-Fi Loud Speakers and Enclosures." Fun to read, but a 60 sq. in. port for a 12" speaker? What?!?!

Anyways, I have a few questions regarding speaker design and speaker types. I'm blaming my dad for this... he has a pair of Wharfedales set up in his office that we found at a thrift store (12" woofers, 4" mids, 1" tweets... real "furniture" speakers from the 60's...) along with a pair of old 12" Electrovoice Wolverine speakers and a pair of Utah horn tweeters from his college days. I have to admit, the setup sounds really, really good. The Electrovoice's really add a lot of "presence." I am wondering what you all think about using Electrovoice speakers (or similar PA-style speakers) as midranges in a pair of floor-standing units. I'm thinking about getting a pair of old PA speakers off of eBay (have seen some good deals on old Electrovoice hardware) and pairing those with dome tweeters and 10" woofers. I'm looking for something around $150 for the pair, not including wood. As far as reproductive quality goes... I listen to everything from jazz to industrial/gothic music to death metal. A sealed design would be best. Would particle board work for this project or would the box just sing? I already have a bunch of 3/4" particle. I'll be running them using a Kenwood HT system with 100 WPC.

What are your thoughts on using pro audio speakers in this manner?

Regards,

Owen
__________________
"Don't look into laser with remaining eye!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2004, 01:01 PM   #2
OMNIFEX is offline OMNIFEX  Jamaica
diyAudio Member
 
OMNIFEX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Locked Up In The Amp Rack
Hey Dude!

Electrovoice makes great pro audio equipment. Pro Audio
is my cup of tea. I'm kinda on some Home Audio
concepts.

The Electrovoice Wolverine is a Fullrange Speaker. So,
you would need to find Pro Audio Fullrange Speakers
that offer similar characteristics.

Unfortunately, not many offer the same response, like
your wolverines.

I would stick with the older EV Speakers, for the new
ones, offer a more limited bandwidth. So, look into
the EVM Series. They offer 10, 12, & 15 inch Loudspeakers
that should offer what you need.

JBL offers some as well. However, I'm not familiar with
their model numbers, and, they offer too much numbers
to second guess.

Basically, search for the older drivers, they will give you
the sound you are looking for.

Personally, I'm using EVM 15B's, and, would recomend
the EVM 10M for your requirements.

Rock On!
__________________
OMNIFEX
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2004, 02:20 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
My sister picked up some old Wharfedale speakers probably very similar to what you mentioned - 2 ways with a 12" accordian surround midbass and a tweeter (not sure what type it is). Proabably about 30 years old. Very nice sounding.

I'd say you could pick up some speakers like that cheap and put them in some better boxes. Better here could mean more inert as well as more attractive. You could also experiment with a larger box as many of them had quite small boxes considering the size of the drivers.

These speakers tend to be high efficiency, so if you want these type of drivers in your system, the drivers should match in sensitivity. If you put drivers like these in the midrange and then add regular hifi woofers and dome tweeters, the midrange will shout! It will probably be +5db more efficient! Bad idea!

A lot of people like the sound of high efficiency drivers, especially those who like to use low power tube and valve amps. These older speakers made up for lower amplifier power by using 12" woofers for the bass and midrange. Now a 6.5" driver will do the same bandwidth but needs more power and excursion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2004, 06:56 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Indiana
Default Vintage Sound

I'm with you guys. I prefer the big tone and smooth sound of some of the older designs like the Altec A7, Klipsch, EV.

I figure the less a woofer has to move the better. If you want to look at current drivers, you could probably pair up an Eminence Beta 10 or 12 wide range driver with a 15" woofer for a big box full range. Some of the BMS, B&C, and Ciare co-axial designs look to be an improvement.

Adire has a pro sound box on their site that uses an 18" and a Beta in a ~7 cu. ft. enclosure, IIRC.

Otherwise, any of the vintage Altec Duplex, Bi-Flex, EV Wolverines, University and so on, could be used. Sizing the box may be made easier by looking at the older design dimensions and duplicating.

Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2004, 07:46 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Francisco
Send a message via AIM to joe carrow
Quote:
Originally posted by paulspencer
You could also experiment with a larger box as many of them had quite small boxes considering the size of the drivers.
Paul, I would urge caution with this. I recall reading someplace that the old sealed woofers (of the era we're talking about) relied more on the air-spring of the small box as a restoring force than the woofers of today tend to. Without knowing (would need to measure, I'm sure) the T/S parameters, I think you'd risk overexcursion.

Also, particle board was mentioned. I'm surprised someone else didn't already say how much they hate particle board- so I'll say it. Particle board is tough to work with! It's also not very strong, and it's easily ruined by moisture. If you've got it and you're on a tight budget, I won't tell you you can't use it. Just consider doubling the thickness and/or using internal bracing. If you build these out of particle board, don't plan on moving them- the edges and corners will be delicate.

Sorry if my response was a little negative, I haven't had my coffee yet.

good luck, and best wishes
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2004, 09:39 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Arizona
Default Smaller is better, for now.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I'll keep you posted on the progress of the project (which will be slow... the best plans are laid to waste by college...)

Quote:
I would stick with the older EV Speakers, for the new
ones, offer a more limited bandwidth. So, look into
the EVM Series. They offer 10, 12, & 15 inch Loudspeakers
that should offer what you need.
Agreed... can't go wrong with the classics. I have seen some pretty good deals for Wolverines on eBay lately, ex.:

8" EV Wolverines

Quote:
These speakers tend to be high efficiency, so if you want these type of drivers in your system, the drivers should match in sensitivity. If you put drivers like these in the midrange and then add regular hifi woofers and dome tweeters, the midrange will shout! It will probably be +5db more efficient! Bad idea!
I kinda figured that much. I want to keep these fairly small. And yes, I really like the idea of high-efficiency speakers. It just seems pretty hard to get decent bass out of these low-excursion PA speakers without some insane horn loading. What bass there is, though, is incredibly tight, and I love that sound. The book I mentioned actually gives quite a few plans for old University and Electro-Voice drivers, but they'are all huge corner-horn or acoustic labyrinth designs. And lets just put it this way... I'm going to have to let my parents use these speakers until I move out of their house because I can't fit anything bigger than bookshelf speakers into my room. I guess the best way to go with these is to pair them with a seperate subwoofer?

Quote:
Also, particle board was mentioned. I'm surprised someone else didn't already say how much they hate particle board- so I'll say it. Particle board is tough to work with!
I know, I know... I don't like the stuff either, but I've got a ton of it lying around and I figured it might work. I will add internal bracing to the speakers. Plus I am trying to stay around $75 per speaker.
I'm toying with the idea of putting protective wood pieces on the corners of the speakers. It'll look a little funky, but would save the box. Wanting good sound and being cheap don't go well together...

Anyhow, thanks again and keep the suggestions coming.

Regards,

Owen
__________________
"Don't look into laser with remaining eye!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2004, 07:06 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
Paul, I would urge caution with this. I recall reading someplace that the old sealed woofers (of the era we're talking about) relied more on the air-spring of the small box as a restoring force than the woofers of today tend to. Without knowing (would need to measure, I'm sure) the T/S parameters, I think you'd risk overexcursion.
Good point, I'm glad you mentioned it. I should have in fact thought of this. It's probably not a good idea to change the volume.

In a HT setup with the speakers set to small these speakers could perform very well. You could get very high output due to their efficiency and increased output due to 80 Hz highpass filters.

If you have particleboard, you can still use it. I wouldn't buy it, but it can be made to work. Suppose you have 18mm particleboard. You could put 12mm MDF on the outside and some bracing inside and get a very solid box. If it is a well finished sealed box, then I don't imagine moisture should be a problem.

Adire has a high efficiency kit which might interest you. It's a bit more compact perhaps and you can make 5 identical speakers.

Still, if you buy old speakers like these you can get bargains. My sister was thinking of replacing the ones she has with some new speakers which would probably be more expensive, smaller but vastly inferior. Since most people don't trust their ears as much as their eyes, perception can work very well in your favour.

My sister was very surprised when I told her how good those speakers were, and that she would have to spend AU $1000 for new speakers to match them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2004, 05:00 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Central California
Particle board will work just fine. Its been used for decades by everyone, and the speakers are still around. Its no more difficult to work with than MDF, and its better than MDF as far as moisture is concerned (get some MDF wet, and watch it swell). For a tweeter, a good one to use, and also inexpensive, is the Selenium D150. Horn loaded, with a phenolic diaphragm (much like the original EV horn tweeter). Kick it in around 5k. You will need an 'L' pad, because its more efficient than the Wolverine. Unfortunately, if you want good bass from the Wolverine, it will need a big box. That was the nature of the speakers, then. Go to Terrys EV site for enclosure information on those drivers.

http://www.geocities.com/tadgesualdo/12trxbwebsite.html

Go here for info on the D150's

https://secure11.websitecomplete.com....asp?prod=2385
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2004, 06:54 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Arizona
Default Something completely different...

Well, I've decided to go with something completely different. I want to stick to floorstanding/tower style sealed enclosures. There are some nice looking rubber-surround poly woofers in the MCM Electronics catalog (here), and I was thinking about a sealed design that uses two of these drivers, matched with a 5" midrange (here) and a silk dome tweeter (here). My thinking is the bass would be tigher with the sealed/rubber surround combo (correct me if I'm wrong.) The speakers will still probably have to be rather large. Is there any way to isolate the midbass without having to build a little box around it inside the main cabinet? I've seen cardboard tubes used for this, but don't know where you'd find them.

Back to my original question though... I love razor-sharp transient response in bass. Would substituting the woofers I mentioned above with a "musical instrument" speaker like say, something like this put out punchy bass without having to depart from the small sealed enclosure design?

Also, would I calculate the volume of the enclosure just by taking the VAS x 2?

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance...
__________________
"Don't look into laser with remaining eye!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2004, 08:32 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Lost,

I think you were onto a good idea but now you seem to be getting ... well, lost! (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Those drivers you mentioned. None of them seem to have response plots and they look a bit ugly to me compared to what diyers mostly use. This is not to turn you away from MCM as they seem to have good low cost bang for buck drivers. Stay away from instrument speakers for home audio! High efficiency is one thing, but these are in a class of their own, intended for their typical use often due to having a certain tone based on harmonic distortion. Have you ever heard music through those things? It sounds worse than the cheapest clock radio!

Another question: how are you going to design the crossover?

Going back to your original idea how about this ...

Get some cheap old speakers and give them a cosmetic upgrade and add a decent sub to fill in the low end. Avoid ebay unless you know the speakers and have good pics. Instead do some hunting around secondhand shops, as you get to hear them that way. Act semi interested in them, as if they are cheap and nasty boom boxes and see if you can bargain them down a little.

You might strip off some of the old vinyl and give them a paint job or put some new veneer on them. You might also use more acoustically transparent grille cloth as many of them use very heavy grilles which mess with the sound. If they sound too bright you might experiment with an Lpad (very easy to add). You may even choose to make the box a little more solid.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
In Home Car Audio Relax Parts 15 8th July 2006 11:56 AM
Home Audio w/ Car Audio Sub? Werd@# Subwoofers 1 23rd November 2004 06:28 AM
My first home audio amp. Tim Wyatt Tubes / Valves 9 9th November 2004 09:10 AM
Car Audio At Home califf123 Car Audio 33 20th March 2004 01:19 PM
Car Amp VS Home Audio? Jay Car Audio 1 3rd December 2003 05:02 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:26 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2