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Old 14th October 2004, 10:19 PM   #21
morbo is offline morbo  Canada
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Any drawbacks?
Well, I've no experience working with the thing, so I can't give first hand information, but I've heard some people raise concerns that the behringer gear is not up to 'audiophile standards' in terms of DACs and other components used. Usually those who raise these issues recommend moving up to some similar piece of gear by a more 'reputable' company that costs 10x as much.

For someone like me, who is happy with consumer grade mid-fi electronics (for the most part), these things are not a major concern. For someone with $1000 outboard DAC or CD transport and a $2000 tube amp, these may be real concerns. I suppose its a matter of priorities and budgets.
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Old 14th October 2004, 10:20 PM   #22
kfr01 is offline kfr01  United States
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Originally posted by dwk123 I'll cast a supporting vote on the 'computer-based dsp crossover' approach. I also use this approach, and think it has a ton of advantages. However, I think what most people here are trying to do is just make it clear that crossover design is for the most part crossover design, and using a computer or other active techniques doesn't really make it 'easier', merely 'different'.
Excellent! I'm so glad to hear someone else thinks this is the way to go. May I ask you to tell me about your setup?

Thanks!
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Old 14th October 2004, 10:23 PM   #23
kfr01 is offline kfr01  United States
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Originally posted by morbo
Well, I've no experience working with the thing, so I can't give first hand information, but I've heard some people raise concerns that the behringer gear is not up to 'audiophile standards' in terms of DACs and other components used. Usually those who raise these issues recommend moving up to some similar piece of gear by a more 'reputable' company that costs 10x as much.

For someone like me, who is happy with consumer grade mid-fi electronics (for the most part), these things are not a major concern. For someone with $1000 outboard DAC or CD transport and a $2000 tube amp, these may be real concerns. I suppose its a matter of priorities and budgets. [/B]
I'm with you. I think the entire reason DIY attracts me is that hopefully I can spend a few grand and obtain a higher quality custom system than some others spend on their pre/pro. :-)
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Old 14th October 2004, 10:25 PM   #24
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Originally posted by kfr01


Newb question. Why would it be good in a MT setup but not an MTM?
Well, in a MTM design, the woofer interact, and the interference will not sound very nice. So the crossover needs to be as low as possibe. D'Appolito states about 3/4 of the wavelength of the distance between mid and tweeter (measured from the middle). In most designs still cross a litte higher, but 1x wavelength should me a good starting point. A MT design does not have this problem. But you should also consider the off axis response of the woofer at the X-over point.

The Behringer 2496 looks nice. You can even hook up a mic. Look on ebay, they might have one at a low price...
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Old 14th October 2004, 10:30 PM   #25
kfr01 is offline kfr01  United States
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Originally posted by Luke (Uof Iowa)
[B]The XT tweeter has great freq response but the distortion level is a different story. This thread has some comments directly related to that tweeter: Dayton Reference (RS) Aluminum drivers finally out

So maybe push up the crossover freq or look into a different tweeter. And the Extremis probably can go higher than 2K without a problem. I know on the website it talks about using 3.5K.
Thanks for the heads up on that tweeter. Can you recommend any tweeters that can play down to 2-2.5khz or so?
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Old 14th October 2004, 10:45 PM   #26
kfr01 is offline kfr01  United States
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Originally posted by 4real


Well, in a MTM design, the woofer interact, and the interference will not sound very nice. So the crossover needs to be as low as possibe. D'Appolito states about 3/4 of the wavelength of the distance between mid and tweeter (measured from the middle). In most designs still cross a litte higher, but 1x wavelength should me a good starting point. A MT design does not have this problem. But you should also consider the off axis response of the woofer at the X-over point.

Hmm.. alright. Let me make sure I understand this. Say the center of the mid and tweeter in an MTM config are 6" apart then the frequency with that wavelength is 2250hz. 3/4 of that is around 1700hz. So, if I wanted to use this setup then the tweeter would need to be able crossed over at 1700hz?

That seems low. Maybe I will just go with one Extremis 6.
So, my latest plan is a too be determined tweeter, hopefully crossed from 2-2.5khz, one extremis 6, and a shiva.
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Old 14th October 2004, 11:12 PM   #27
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Originally posted by kfr01


Thanks for the heads up on that tweeter. Can you recommend any tweeters that can play down to 2-2.5khz or so?
In that thread they talk about the Seas TDFC, which I have heard good things about also. Generally, ribbon and planar tweeters can play lower, but you have to worry about power handling since they're usually more fragile in that respect. So the Seas could be a thing to look into, look at John's site for some more info about it and the TFFC: http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/
Plus its only like $20-something.

Where in IA are you? There is a DIY meet in Altoona next saturday.
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Old 14th October 2004, 11:46 PM   #28
kfr01 is offline kfr01  United States
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Originally posted by Luke (Uof Iowa)


In that thread they talk about the Seas TDFC, which I have heard good things about also. Generally, ribbon and planar tweeters can play lower, but you have to worry about power handling since they're usually more fragile in that respect. So the Seas could be a thing to look into, look at John's site for some more info about it and the TFFC: http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/
Plus its only like $20-something.

Where in IA are you? There is a DIY meet in Altoona next saturday.
Thanks for the into on that tweeter. I'm also in the Iowa City area. (trying to solidify some diy plans before Reference AV opens their new showroom close to my home in Coralville) :-)
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:14 AM   #29
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Originally posted by kfr01


Thanks for the into on that tweeter. I'm also in the Iowa City area. (trying to solidify some diy plans before Reference AV opens their new showroom close to my home in Coralville) :-)
Oh yeah, my friend told me about that place. He has a Behringer Ultracurve EQ and crossover that is modified to work in his car. He's using it as a 4-way with an EDi set and a TB in the middle and a trio of eD 10o's. I trimmed my car stereo down a lot so I'm down to a 2-way active using TB W3-871S and some 6.5" in the doors on a Tru T4.65.
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Old 15th October 2004, 05:43 AM   #30
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Firstly here is a nice looking system based on the Behringer Ultradrive:

Digital active speakers

Now a few different ideas.

TMW + sub

Vifa XT tweeter
CSS - 4.5" widerange driver with XBL2
Adire Koda - (80 - 300 Hz)

Starting with the Vifa XT tweeter which you seem to like. Some have commented that this tweeter acts a bit like a midrange driver and rolls off a lot lower, but it lacks the SD to work well down in that range. As a result it tends to sound harsh unless crossed higher than other 1" tweeters. It seems with a passive xo many use a 3rd order slope at 2.8k. With a digital xo and an 8th order 48db slope it should perform well and handle being crossed lower.

The CSS widerange driver has low distortion and is very flat, easier to deal with than the Extremis. It gives you the flexibility to cross where you prefer rather than force you to cross lower than the tweeter can handle. It's off axis response is probably much better as well - in fact very good off axis response up to 3k. With its high xmax it would have a very high power handling when crossed at 300 Hz.

The Adire Koda is only slightly more expensive than the extremis but due to the larger SD is equivalent to ~ 2 of the extremis. The response of this driver is interesting - it is as if it has BSC built in. In Adires words it is an "... ideal driver for bridging to a subwoofer in the 50-80 Hz range, and crossing over to a midrange in the 300-600 Hz range."

If budget allows I would then cross to the Adire Tumult, or consider it a future upgrade. For high output I'd cross at 60 - 80 Hz to help the rest of the system keep up with the Tumult.

Most diy speakers are simple but difficult. Say a 2 way speaker with a passive crossover - it's quite simple, but not easy to get right. If you used the XT tweeter here, it is quite fussy about the xo point and slope. This speaker is not as simple, but it is not as difficult. There are two things to consider here - complexity and difficulty. I would argue that adding a digital or active crossover increases the complexity of the project, but also reduces the difficulty.

With the ultradrive the drivers would all be very linear and perform well within their range. Also you can easily try different crossover slopes and xo points. The nice thing about this project would be to have all the drivers (except the tweeter) using the XBL2 technology with very low distortion and a very flat BL curve.

Here's a pic of what it might look like .... (hmmmm I'm getting tempted to do something like this myself now!!!)
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File Type: gif 3way adire speaker plus tumult.gif (25.4 KB, 100 views)
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