I listen from about 100~150cm away from the speakers. I design commercial audio equipment, and I am always interested in finding out in what areas my designs and prototypes are weak.
Far-field listening tends to gloss over differences, while with close listening the problems are literally in your face, which is exactly what I want. As Claudio mentioned, this is the same thinking as for recording and broadcast studios.
I find that speakers suited for close-up listening usually have the midrange driver and tweeter in close physical proximity. I normally run a two or three-way compact monitor with a separate pair of subwoofers, crossed over normally at 80~120Hz, sometimes somewhat lower.
hth, jonathan carr
Far-field listening tends to gloss over differences, while with close listening the problems are literally in your face, which is exactly what I want. As Claudio mentioned, this is the same thinking as for recording and broadcast studios.
I find that speakers suited for close-up listening usually have the midrange driver and tweeter in close physical proximity. I normally run a two or three-way compact monitor with a separate pair of subwoofers, crossed over normally at 80~120Hz, sometimes somewhat lower.
hth, jonathan carr
nearfield
I have been listening near field(43"-~ 107cm) for over 5 years now in my living room and wouldnt have it any other way. However the road to nirvana was paved with the carcasses of many moniter 2 ways with sub.
Midbass/mid+tweeter may work for mastering , but not for recreating music in the home, in my expierience. All of them sounded "split" and not coherent. In my expierience its impossible to get the tweeter close enough to the mid, unless its a concentric co- ax.5 years ago i switched to the Jordan JX93S "full range" with sub . This was the answer! While not perfect, I was finally listening to coherent MUSIC , not HI FI. i listen to some pink floyd, country, female singers , but 90 % to classical from full orchestra with double chorus down to chamber ensombles ( almost ALL acoustic instruments ) . The 2 Jordans are 64 inches apart but 43 " to each ear , toed in to cross just in front of my face. The 2 subs are directly beside my listening chair , 1 on each side, also at 43" to my ears ( time aligned with sats) all the speakers totally dissapear and the image is between 5 ft and 14 feet wide ( a solid 90deg. angle from my seat) depending on the music/ venue and from 5 to 40 feet away. There is virtually no intreaction from the room compared to the direct sound. My room vanishes and what is heard is the recording venue. There is practually no sensation of the performers being in the room with me (it is not "they are here") but i am almost totally transported into thier original venue space ("I am there!") The ambiance is retrieved in a most amazing way. I am seated in front of the performers in thier own orig space . This makes for an exciting, imersive, emotional musical event drawing u completely into the music.
The sats are run "full range" ( not cut off on the bottom ) , are max flat to 100 HZ and sealed so roll off @ 100 Hz, and the subs are sealed and XOed @ 100 HZ and EQed. They are - 4 or 5 Db down @ 20 hz
The *MAX* spl i listen to is 103 db.
The room is 14 X 30 feet , The wall behind the speakers is covered by heavy wool Berber carpet 6' high X 18 ft long set out 2" from the wall forming a 25 cubic ft. bass trap (it also covers a window soffit ). Its taken me 50 years of DIY to arrive at this point and im happy
I have been listening near field(43"-~ 107cm) for over 5 years now in my living room and wouldnt have it any other way. However the road to nirvana was paved with the carcasses of many moniter 2 ways with sub.
Midbass/mid+tweeter may work for mastering , but not for recreating music in the home, in my expierience. All of them sounded "split" and not coherent. In my expierience its impossible to get the tweeter close enough to the mid, unless its a concentric co- ax.5 years ago i switched to the Jordan JX93S "full range" with sub . This was the answer! While not perfect, I was finally listening to coherent MUSIC , not HI FI. i listen to some pink floyd, country, female singers , but 90 % to classical from full orchestra with double chorus down to chamber ensombles ( almost ALL acoustic instruments ) . The 2 Jordans are 64 inches apart but 43 " to each ear , toed in to cross just in front of my face. The 2 subs are directly beside my listening chair , 1 on each side, also at 43" to my ears ( time aligned with sats) all the speakers totally dissapear and the image is between 5 ft and 14 feet wide ( a solid 90deg. angle from my seat) depending on the music/ venue and from 5 to 40 feet away. There is virtually no intreaction from the room compared to the direct sound. My room vanishes and what is heard is the recording venue. There is practually no sensation of the performers being in the room with me (it is not "they are here") but i am almost totally transported into thier original venue space ("I am there!") The ambiance is retrieved in a most amazing way. I am seated in front of the performers in thier own orig space . This makes for an exciting, imersive, emotional musical event drawing u completely into the music.
The sats are run "full range" ( not cut off on the bottom ) , are max flat to 100 HZ and sealed so roll off @ 100 Hz, and the subs are sealed and XOed @ 100 HZ and EQed. They are - 4 or 5 Db down @ 20 hz
The *MAX* spl i listen to is 103 db.
The room is 14 X 30 feet , The wall behind the speakers is covered by heavy wool Berber carpet 6' high X 18 ft long set out 2" from the wall forming a 25 cubic ft. bass trap (it also covers a window soffit ). Its taken me 50 years of DIY to arrive at this point and im happy
THOR, I never thought about making a setup like yours, but man, after reading what you just wrote I'm REALLY thinking about trying it out! Any chance you could post some pics of your setup? I'm dying to check it out!
Also, with your setup do you think the results are because you're using only one full-range driver per side, or do you think I could get similar results with a mini line-array, using 4-6 of these highly praised 3" Tang Bands:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w3-871s.asp
I listen to a lot of rock and some metal, with the ocassional Norah Jones or classical, so I'm thinking I'll need a bit more volume.
Thanks!
Also, with your setup do you think the results are because you're using only one full-range driver per side, or do you think I could get similar results with a mini line-array, using 4-6 of these highly praised 3" Tang Bands:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w3-871s.asp
I listen to a lot of rock and some metal, with the ocassional Norah Jones or classical, so I'm thinking I'll need a bit more volume.
Thanks!
hi Mazeroth
I just happen to have 7 of those TBs that we are building for a friends ht and we placed 2 side by side for a center and i stood them up and a/b them with the single driver jordans. MTMs and mini line arays do not work nearfield it too just sounds split, with the singers mouth seeming to strech from the bottom edge of the lower one to the top edge of the top one . it didnt sound too bad till i played it against the jordan , hoping it would be a match. no such luck! The Jordan simply killed it dead (2- TBs=$24, 1Jordan =s $135 ) so whats new? The nearfield, the wall treatment, the Jordans, tubes on the Jordans,room size all contribute to what i described. Away from the jordans in his room the ht sounds great for what it is, with an 8" JBL sub. But he still wants my jordans LOL. Thats what he gets for pinching dollars (and he has the $$$ ) i took my jordans over to ab them and he almost cryed!
I just happen to have 7 of those TBs that we are building for a friends ht and we placed 2 side by side for a center and i stood them up and a/b them with the single driver jordans. MTMs and mini line arays do not work nearfield it too just sounds split, with the singers mouth seeming to strech from the bottom edge of the lower one to the top edge of the top one . it didnt sound too bad till i played it against the jordan , hoping it would be a match. no such luck! The Jordan simply killed it dead (2- TBs=$24, 1Jordan =s $135 ) so whats new? The nearfield, the wall treatment, the Jordans, tubes on the Jordans,room size all contribute to what i described. Away from the jordans in his room the ht sounds great for what it is, with an 8" JBL sub. But he still wants my jordans LOL. Thats what he gets for pinching dollars (and he has the $$$ ) i took my jordans over to ab them and he almost cryed!
(sorry for my english)
Hi Thor,
IMHO the" nearfield experience"show a simply thing : line array concept is "erroneus" .
I have some doubt about 1,07 m stereo triangle,
(big orchestra,etc) i prefer 1,8-2 m triangle with "coventional" minimonitor and heavy control of firsts reflections .
In your setup why not Manger instead jordan?
Hi !
Hi Thor,
IMHO the" nearfield experience"show a simply thing : line array concept is "erroneus" .
I have some doubt about 1,07 m stereo triangle,
(big orchestra,etc) i prefer 1,8-2 m triangle with "coventional" minimonitor and heavy control of firsts reflections .
In your setup why not Manger instead jordan?
Hi !
hi Inertial
good question . 1) i have heard dificulties with the mangers
2) im retired on a tight fixed income and here the mangers are $$$)
If i were to change it would be to supravox 215 signature bicones that are not so pricey and play glorious music on open baffels, not mangers
90% of my listening is acoustical instruments, so tone and music is my goal not "hi fi" sound. ill take a few small warts as long as it recreats true to life ( as close as i can get) tone, timber, image and musical emotion from the artists
The Jordans do this and the supravox to a higher level .
My other 2 "wi$hed for" $peakers are the Tannoy dual concentric 15", simply the finest co ax i ever heard, and the field coil supravox, perhaps the finest FR ever made. i prefer all of these to manger . sorry , but thats me. I live 1 1/2 hrs from Las Vegas and the CES, so have heard most. another fave are DR. Bruce Edgars horns for different reasons but beyond my reach $$ I have heard them extensively at Bruces SoCal Horn Club meetings. they are supurbe.
good question . 1) i have heard dificulties with the mangers
2) im retired on a tight fixed income and here the mangers are $$$)
If i were to change it would be to supravox 215 signature bicones that are not so pricey and play glorious music on open baffels, not mangers
90% of my listening is acoustical instruments, so tone and music is my goal not "hi fi" sound. ill take a few small warts as long as it recreats true to life ( as close as i can get) tone, timber, image and musical emotion from the artists
The Jordans do this and the supravox to a higher level .
My other 2 "wi$hed for" $peakers are the Tannoy dual concentric 15", simply the finest co ax i ever heard, and the field coil supravox, perhaps the finest FR ever made. i prefer all of these to manger . sorry , but thats me. I live 1 1/2 hrs from Las Vegas and the CES, so have heard most. another fave are DR. Bruce Edgars horns for different reasons but beyond my reach $$
I have heard them extensively at Bruces SoCal Horn Club meetings. they are supurbe.The advantages of the Mangers are their wide bandwidth (much wider than any other fullrange driver) and that they can do quite some SPLs. The Jordans however seem to have a flatter requency response than the Mangers (and also very low THD according to a recent lab report from a German mag).
I listen to my Mangers also nearfield because my listening room is quite reverberant (TECHNICALLY speaking it wouldn't be a problem to improve the room acoustics).
IMO it doesn't make a difference how orchestra and the like are "displayed" wheter you listen at 1 m or 1.8 m as long as the distance ratios are kept the same (apart from the changed ratio of direct/reflected sound which is depending on hte room).
I once had the idea for a speaker using a fullrange driver assisted by two woofers in D'Appolito arrangement, driven actively and using a special type of subtractive crossover. Such a speaker could be implemented not only with drivers like the Jordan but also with cheap ones (and still give some headroom due to the relief in the bass range). It would be suited for close-field AND mid-field listening.
Regards
Charles
I listen to my Mangers also nearfield because my listening room is quite reverberant (TECHNICALLY speaking it wouldn't be a problem to improve the room acoustics).
IMO it doesn't make a difference how orchestra and the like are "displayed" wheter you listen at 1 m or 1.8 m as long as the distance ratios are kept the same (apart from the changed ratio of direct/reflected sound which is depending on hte room).
I once had the idea for a speaker using a fullrange driver assisted by two woofers in D'Appolito arrangement, driven actively and using a special type of subtractive crossover. Such a speaker could be implemented not only with drivers like the Jordan but also with cheap ones (and still give some headroom due to the relief in the bass range). It would be suited for close-field AND mid-field listening.
Regards
Charles
Now hear this
(sorry for my english),
Put your stereo system in a church and then in a studio rec and after in
the middle of a desert and ........( the same triangle of course)
The result is totally different. The sound is a "space-time story" from
the speaker to you . Every single reflection modify your perception.
Wich is "correct" ? Again, what a speaker must to do and what
NOT to do? Monopole, bipole, dipole, omnidirectional, line source,etc?
Alls right? From LS3/5A "shoes-box" to amazing mega-speaker
of 2000 kg are they equally "corrects"?
One way, or two, .....10 ways!?? GULP!
What is the "criteria" ? higher the price, better the result?
IMO, this is a strange world where the listeners show do not understand difference from "bads" and "goods".
Excuse me for my cruel conclusion .
Hi alls.
(sorry for my english),
Put your stereo system in a church and then in a studio rec and after in
the middle of a desert and ........( the same triangle of course)
The result is totally different. The sound is a "space-time story" from
the speaker to you . Every single reflection modify your perception.
Wich is "correct" ? Again, what a speaker must to do and what
NOT to do? Monopole, bipole, dipole, omnidirectional, line source,etc?
Alls right? From LS3/5A "shoes-box" to amazing mega-speaker
of 2000 kg are they equally "corrects"?
One way, or two, .....10 ways!?? GULP!
What is the "criteria" ? higher the price, better the result?
IMO, this is a strange world where the listeners show do not understand difference from "bads" and "goods".
Excuse me for my cruel conclusion .
Hi alls.
nearfield
Hi Charles , im my opinion the woofer/FR would work splendidly as long as the Xo was ~ 100 Hz! thats a good idea. my subs are on either side of my chair and only the small sats are in my normal field of vision. I MUCH prefer seperate subs as it gives me freedom to place them anywhere
HI inertial from your question "what is correct? " I take it you dont hear much live acoustical jazz, blues or classical, and that is a shame cause that is what IS "correct" in its venue with its ambiance. Since i never listen to my music system inside a church, studio, or desert, i have not optimized my sys for those places . maybe u do, or maybe u just like to argue and be right I HAVE optimized my system to minimize the room effects so if music is recorded in any of those places it will sound like that place, not like my room . Thats what ambiance retrirval is all about! Most systems i hear are very poor at this .
What is my reference sound ? I had the same seat at the St Louis symphony for over 20 straight seasons and KNOW the sound of that venue! When i play thier recordings and it sounds like im sitting there listening, then I know that my sys is close to "CORRECT". Too bad u dont know what is correct and what is notDo all venues sound the same on ur sys?
Do all venues sound the same on my sys? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Each venue has its own characteristic sound , as it should. As i listen to YO YO MA's "Simply Baroque, the chello is mello, biting, singing, resonious, in an intimate space with the small orchestra behind YO YO. Sometimes they are the focus,and then they are, but thier position dosent shift and there is wonderfull space around them Carmina Burana is the polar opposite. Here we have a mamouth orchestra and percussion with a full childrens chorus , full male chorus, full womans chorus . simply immence sound in a huge space. The mucic fills a full 45 deg angle from my position, far outside he speakers. you can clearly hear the snare 40 feet away pin pointed in its own space. When all hell breaks loose in a forte` its immence as it should be and as i heard it live on a proper sys this music will grab ur soul and wring you out!!
Hi Charles , im my opinion the woofer/FR would work splendidly as long as the Xo was ~ 100 Hz! thats a good idea. my subs are on either side of my chair and only the small sats are in my normal field of vision. I MUCH prefer seperate subs as it gives me freedom to place them anywhere
HI inertial
from your question "what is correct? " I take it you dont hear much live acoustical jazz, blues or classical, and that is a shame cause that is what IS "correct" in its venue with its ambiance. Since i never listen to my music system inside a church, studio, or desert, i have not optimized my sys for those places . maybe u do, or maybe u just like to argue and be right I HAVE optimized my system to minimize the room effects so if music is recorded in any of those places it will sound like that place, not like my room . Thats what ambiance retrirval is all about! Most systems i hear are very poor at this . What is my reference sound ? I had the same seat at the St Louis symphony for over 20 straight seasons and KNOW the sound of that venue! When i play thier recordings and it sounds like im sitting there listening, then I know that my sys is close to "CORRECT". Too bad u dont know what is correct and what is not
Do all venues sound the same on ur sys? Do all venues sound the same on my sys? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Each venue has its own characteristic sound , as it should. As i listen to YO YO MA's "Simply Baroque, the chello is mello, biting, singing, resonious, in an intimate space with the small orchestra behind YO YO. Sometimes they are the focus,and then they are, but thier position dosent shift and there is wonderfull space around them
Carmina Burana is the polar opposite. Here we have a mamouth orchestra and percussion with a full childrens chorus , full male chorus, full womans chorus . simply immence sound in a huge space. The mucic fills a full 45 deg angle from my position, far outside he speakers. you can clearly hear the snare 40 feet away pin pointed in its own space. When all hell breaks loose in a forte` its immence as it should be and as i heard it live on a proper sys this music will grab ur soul and wring you out!! welcome back Thor,
Maybe my english is incomprehensible , because you have misunderstand all my words!!
I'm sorry but mine questions was rhetorical ( and provocative, i admit)!!
I hope you have some sense of humor.
If your stereo give you the same sensation of the live performance
simply you have done a perfect work. Your research is terminated
and you enyoy listening "correct". Congratulations.
Best regards
Maybe my english is incomprehensible , because you have misunderstand all my words!!
I'm sorry but mine questions was rhetorical ( and provocative, i admit)!!
I hope you have some sense of humor.
If your stereo give you the same sensation of the live performance
simply you have done a perfect work. Your research is terminated
and you enyoy listening "correct". Congratulations.
Best regards
lol inertial
YES, I have a sense of humour if i didnt my post would have more blunt One thing that dismayed me in ur post< and why I went on and on was this **"what
to do? Monopole, bipole, dipole, omnidirectional, line source,etc?
Alls right? From LS3/5A "shoes-box" to amazing mega-speaker
of 2000 kg are they equally "corrects"?
One way, or two, .....10 ways!?? GULP!
What is the "criteria" ? higher the price, better the result? "**
no the only criteria is how they sound
from this I thought that u were placeing more importance on the speaker than the sound. Above in my other post i give my preferences in speakers. Any of these are capable of what I want, except the EDGARHORN , as it dosent work nearfield, (Id LOVE to have it in a big room tho) but his slim line horn works closer and in smaller rooms, another fave of mine! So to recap , I listed 3 FR (which i would augment with stereo subs), 1 CO-AX , and 2 horns, both 4 ways when u use the sub so im not fixated LOL. Most importantly its the QUALITY of each of these implimentations, not the type! They are all superbe as themselves, some are just more superbe than the others, LOL, and range from 540$ a pair, all with subs to 10 thousand or so.
YES, I have a sense of humour
if i didnt my post would have more blunt One thing that dismayed me in ur post< and why I went on and on was this **"whatto do? Monopole, bipole, dipole, omnidirectional, line source,etc?
Alls right? From LS3/5A "shoes-box" to amazing mega-speaker
of 2000 kg are they equally "corrects"?
One way, or two, .....10 ways!?? GULP!
What is the "criteria" ? higher the price, better the result? "**
no the only criteria is how they sound
from this I thought that u were placeing more importance on the speaker than the sound. Above in my other post i give my preferences in speakers. Any of these are capable of what I want, except the EDGARHORN , as it dosent work nearfield, (Id LOVE to have it in a big room tho) but his slim line horn works closer and in smaller rooms, another fave of mine! So to recap , I listed 3 FR (which i would augment with stereo subs), 1 CO-AX , and 2 horns, both 4 ways when u use the sub
so im not fixated LOL. Most importantly its the QUALITY of each of these implimentations, not the type! They are all superbe as themselves, some are just more superbe than the others, LOL, and range from 540$ a pair, all with subs to 10 thousand or so.
How far above 20 kHz did you measure, Mr. Pass ? The MSW goes up to 30 kHz which I can hardly believe the Jordan could do as well. But my imagination may be way off.
Regarding my preferences I can't comment on the performance of the Jordans sound-wise, since I haven't listen to one so far. Mangers are easier to get (though much more expensive) here.
Since you tested both: Wich one can generate more SPL before sounding muddy ? From the Vd point-of-view it should definitely be the Manger, but one never knows.
Regards
Charles
Regarding my preferences I can't comment on the performance of the Jordans sound-wise, since I haven't listen to one so far. Mangers are easier to get (though much more expensive) here.
Since you tested both: Wich one can generate more SPL before sounding muddy ? From the Vd point-of-view it should definitely be the Manger, but one never knows.
Regards
Charles
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