I'm new to diy so bare with me. I have a pair of Klipsch Lascala speaker in a room 26' x 36' x 22' high powered by a Rotel 100 w/pc reciver. My "problem" is I'm disapionted with bass peformance and I am considering building a pair of woofer only speakers. I currently am not using an eq but have one coming. I would appriciate any imput or comment, keep in mind I am simple and new to this site and may be asking my question in the wrong place. Thanks T81
The flare rate of the LS is 100Hz, so you're not going to get anywhere near the same performance out of a stocker below that as above it. Adding subs below is a good idea, but you're going to need a lot of clean, low distortion sound capability or they're going to integrate like oil and water. If you have lots of room, a pair of LABhorns (or some other decent LF horn) would do well.
Also, build the ALK xover, it makes a big improvement to my ears in my Khorns.
Also, build the ALK xover, it makes a big improvement to my ears in my Khorns.
Brett, thanks for your suggestion. You seem to be the man when it comes to horns. I read your La Scala Mod page, way over my head but very informative. Is it possible to to lower the Hz buy using existing drivers and crossover? Is cabinet mod or porting an alternative. One thing I can do is carpentry? These stockers are rated for 100W in 400 peak, Do I need more than 100w/pc or is upgrading woofer and or crossover the only ticket. Much appriciated , T81
Aw, shucks. No, I'm just someone who likes to experiment, can read and use a calculator.t81 said:
If you mean the one I've linked to previously regarding porting and SB4 alignments, that's the work of 'djk'
The only way I know how to do it is with Dennis' mods, linked before.
Then build some basshorns of you have the room, or try Dennis' mod.
Have you ever actually put 100W though them? That's over 120dB! My Khorns were run off a 5W tube amp in a room much larger then yours and that still got the Police called regularly over the noise. Get an SPL meter and be careful with your hearing!
This brings up the big problem I see with well designed horn systems; they're generally so clean that you can play them a lot louder than direct radiator systems before you notice any sort of compression effects.
I'd say there is probably nothing better than a pair of horn subs to get the bass that you want. I have seen one person unfold a lab horn to use in a church (it's online somewhere) and it seems that perhaps you could do this in such a big room. Unfolded is better as you get a smoother response.
Alternative - one Tumult per side to sit under your existing speakers.
Whatever you do, I think you will get the best out of it by setting it up well with eq - like say the Behringer Ultracurve - see review here
This will not only help with room correction, it may have a few more surprises:
1. correct horn response - not known to be flat
2. correct recordings - so many just don't sound right when you get a flat response due to the way they mixed for speakers that aren't flat
3. add contours to suit your preferences - BBC dip, etc
Alternative - one Tumult per side to sit under your existing speakers.
Whatever you do, I think you will get the best out of it by setting it up well with eq - like say the Behringer Ultracurve - see review here
This will not only help with room correction, it may have a few more surprises:
1. correct horn response - not known to be flat
2. correct recordings - so many just don't sound right when you get a flat response due to the way they mixed for speakers that aren't flat
3. add contours to suit your preferences - BBC dip, etc
Out of curiosity I modelled your room in the FRD room reflection calculator, assuming a listening position in the middle of the room seated. What I found was that the bass dips quickly below 100 Hz until about 50 Hz. If you had early bass rolloff then this would kill whatever bass you do have and by the time you get to 50 Hz there is so much rolloff that it's all gone.
If you put subs under the mains you will have to eq to get it flat.
Note: magenta curve shows the response further back in the room.
The red curve shows the response you get when the subs are 1m either side of you, much less impacted by the room.
Please note: this is a fairly crude simulation and will only give some ideas of what *might* be happening.
It is interesting to note that with the subs up close, the response is so smooth you don't need much eq. The only problem with this approach is where you have distortion, this enables localisation and suddenly the bass will be coming from the subs rather than being coherent with the mains. I suspect this is something that you could fix with digital delay which you have on the Ultracurve, which would probably not otherwise be required.
In a nutshell, here's my suggestion - pick whichever of these appeals most to you:
1. build a pair of horn subs and place them in the room corners and add ultracurve between your pre and power amp to eq your whole system
2. build a pair of small monopoles to go either side of your seating position - choose a driver for low distortion like the Tumult - eq with ultracurve - you may use ultracurve fullrange unless you determine that you need to use delay in which case you can only use it for the subs
From a performance point of view, both will be VERY impressive. With the subs so close you effectively gain a lot of efficiency just like you would with horn loading, and you may find the result more "domestically acceptable."
Here's a chart showing the simulation:
If you put subs under the mains you will have to eq to get it flat.
Note: magenta curve shows the response further back in the room.
The red curve shows the response you get when the subs are 1m either side of you, much less impacted by the room.
Please note: this is a fairly crude simulation and will only give some ideas of what *might* be happening.
It is interesting to note that with the subs up close, the response is so smooth you don't need much eq. The only problem with this approach is where you have distortion, this enables localisation and suddenly the bass will be coming from the subs rather than being coherent with the mains. I suspect this is something that you could fix with digital delay which you have on the Ultracurve, which would probably not otherwise be required.
In a nutshell, here's my suggestion - pick whichever of these appeals most to you:
1. build a pair of horn subs and place them in the room corners and add ultracurve between your pre and power amp to eq your whole system
2. build a pair of small monopoles to go either side of your seating position - choose a driver for low distortion like the Tumult - eq with ultracurve - you may use ultracurve fullrange unless you determine that you need to use delay in which case you can only use it for the subs
From a performance point of view, both will be VERY impressive. With the subs so close you effectively gain a lot of efficiency just like you would with horn loading, and you may find the result more "domestically acceptable."
Here's a chart showing the simulation:
Attachments
pualspencer just for the heck of my room is 26' wide 36' long with cathedral ceiling running long ways. the sid walls rise to 13' then rise 34 degrees to 22'. at one end is flat or straight wall at the speaker end is a prow gable that slopes out at 18 degrees. my speakers are in the corners of this prow gable aiming in at 18 degrees crossing signal at 28'(listening area). thanks again, t81
Brett said:
Care to elaborate?
t81,
Cathedral ceilings!!! ... ok that's one thing the program I use won't deal with. I use it go get ideas. In my room it does seem to reflect what I hear in the room in the bass, I will have to compare it to some room measurements sometime to see how accurate it is.
Brett said:
I have heard a system set up with ultracurve, although it was only used for the bass. It was the best bass I have ever heard.
Which ultracurve? DEQ 2496 or DSP 8024?
Did you use it for the bass or fullrange?
Brett, I'm trying to get some useful info out of this. "It sounds better" doesn't really help as another person will say the opposite. Comments like "there was more noise" ... "dynamics were compressed" ... "soundstage collapsed" ... "midrange clarity was tarnished" etc would be more helpful.
Or could it be that a flat response isn't to your taste?
It's a shame you're not local, otherwise I could perhaps help take the UC off your hands for ya
But to focus back on the central issue here, do your comments relate to the full range performance of UC only or also to the bass?
Both 8000 and 8024paulspencer said:
Fullrange, mainly
I've found it nearly impossible to describe what I'm hearing, or have someone else do ti satisfactorily to me. Too often I hear such and such a component/system sounds like ....... and when I get to hear it, I'm like "huh? Are we speaking the same language?" So I'm not sure what to say to you that would communicate my experience of it through my fullrange front horn system. Needless to say that after a lot of futzing with it, it added a level of grain and glare that I found really annoying and 'flattenned' the presentation (not just speaking soundstage here, but everything) to the point where I simply didn't like it the way it was.
Flat response is highly overrated and has almost nothing to do with enjoyment.
They're both in use in my PA.It's a shame you're not local, otherwise I could perhaps help take the UC off your hands for ya
Fullrange, but under 80Hz or so it's probably OK.
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