I'd like to think that Accuton's concave diamond tweeter performs better than the Raven R2. Its dispersion is higher (especially in the vertical direction, though that's not always desired), and it's no slouch in the supertreble frequencies either. Distortion... who knows?
EDIT: Bah, glossed over the "in this price range".
EDIT: Bah, glossed over the "in this price range".
assuming you can deal with the moderate eff. of 91 db.. this is what I'd go for:
the largest of the LCY's - the 130
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/lcy-components.html
this will have a radiation pattern more consistent with a midrange and has a resonace low enough for 1st order filter above 5k
the Veravox 5 X
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/veravox/veravox5X.html
for a driver with an SD of a "5 inch" driver, this thing has REALLY low mms around 2.8 grams. Additionally the decay is excellent up to 5 kHz.
Of course if your not shy about prices I'd think it be pretty hard to beat the supravox field coil fullrange (at around 1,200 US), then look to Alain Ribbons (also on the e-speakers site) - note that these ribbons are the next evolution of the Raven drivers (at a stiff price).
the largest of the LCY's - the 130
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/lcy-components.html
this will have a radiation pattern more consistent with a midrange and has a resonace low enough for 1st order filter above 5k
the Veravox 5 X
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/veravox/veravox5X.html
for a driver with an SD of a "5 inch" driver, this thing has REALLY low mms around 2.8 grams. Additionally the decay is excellent up to 5 kHz.
Of course if your not shy about prices I'd think it be pretty hard to beat the supravox field coil fullrange (at around 1,200 US), then look to Alain Ribbons (also on the e-speakers site) - note that these ribbons are the next evolution of the Raven drivers (at a stiff price).
The most tonally accurate midrange/treble I've heard (from cone spkrs, that is) is the Raven R-1 ribbon tweeter with a 4" Accuton C79-2 ceramic midrange in combination with a Cabasse 21NDC honeycomb foam bass unit (lets not forget the importance of the bass driver and the lower midrange it adds, so it is important to have a high quality bass unit if you want good midrange).
However, the 'best' midrange bar none that I've heard is the Quad ESL-57 ! (I once had four pairs of them!). Now I use the even faster Mackinlay ESL-3, see www.eraudio.com.au .
Some quick midrange comparisons are:
- ATC 3" dome (as heard in a Proac EBS)...generally excellent & very musical, but not sure it's got the detail and speed of the Accuton.
- Seas Excel magnesium drivers(as heard in a $10,000 ten driver array) ...very good but there is a 'magnesium signature'. Sound is kind of crunchy and not entirely natural IMO.
- Scanspeak carbon drivers...nice and musical but a bit wooly and not the last word in detail retrieval.
- most polypropylene mid drivers...some are nice and musical but can't keep up with Accutons and any of the above for detail retrieval, IMO.
- Fostex FE206E...wonderfully fast, alive and efficient 8" point source driver! Plug and play with no crossover in a 20L box, and cheap too at $84USD each from Madisound. Nice open sounding addictive quality, tight imaging with a room filling electrostatic-like soundstage. Best used with competent BR/TL bass augmentation. Ultimately a bit scratchy sounding though, and not as tonally accurate as the Raven/Accuton combination.
Pics of these speakers mentioned attached.
For what it's worth...
Regards,
Steve M.
However, the 'best' midrange bar none that I've heard is the Quad ESL-57 ! (I once had four pairs of them!). Now I use the even faster Mackinlay ESL-3, see www.eraudio.com.au .
Some quick midrange comparisons are:
- ATC 3" dome (as heard in a Proac EBS)...generally excellent & very musical, but not sure it's got the detail and speed of the Accuton.
- Seas Excel magnesium drivers(as heard in a $10,000 ten driver array) ...very good but there is a 'magnesium signature'. Sound is kind of crunchy and not entirely natural IMO.
- Scanspeak carbon drivers...nice and musical but a bit wooly and not the last word in detail retrieval.
- most polypropylene mid drivers...some are nice and musical but can't keep up with Accutons and any of the above for detail retrieval, IMO.
- Fostex FE206E...wonderfully fast, alive and efficient 8" point source driver! Plug and play with no crossover in a 20L box, and cheap too at $84USD each from Madisound. Nice open sounding addictive quality, tight imaging with a room filling electrostatic-like soundstage. Best used with competent BR/TL bass augmentation. Ultimately a bit scratchy sounding though, and not as tonally accurate as the Raven/Accuton combination.
Pics of these speakers mentioned attached.
For what it's worth...
Regards,
Steve M.
Attachments
THanks for the great info guys! 
ScottG:
Is it true that Veravox 5 X is used in the Beauhorn B2 too?
Steve M:
Is the Accutons as musical as ATC dome?
(Here in Greece we have a dealer for the ATC and noone for Accuton)
Do you know the crossover points of the Accuton Raven Cabasse system? How was the bass of the Cabasse?
Which crossover point did you pick between the double Fostex and Eton 11"?
Does the Raven R1 have good enough vertical dispersion (due to less longer ribbon)?
Do the Eton midranges have nearly the same sound signature with the Excels (like a bit of cold sound)?
--
I really didn't like the SS Revelator 7" but I liked the 5" 15W/8530K00 and the carbon 18W/8545. How is this explained
Anyone about PHLs comprison with other components?
Thank you again for any help!
ScottG:
Is it true that Veravox 5 X is used in the Beauhorn B2 too?
Steve M:
Is the Accutons as musical as ATC dome?
(Here in Greece we have a dealer for the ATC and noone for Accuton)
Do you know the crossover points of the Accuton Raven Cabasse system? How was the bass of the Cabasse?
Which crossover point did you pick between the double Fostex and Eton 11"?
Does the Raven R1 have good enough vertical dispersion (due to less longer ribbon)?
Do the Eton midranges have nearly the same sound signature with the Excels (like a bit of cold sound)?
--
I really didn't like the SS Revelator 7" but I liked the 5" 15W/8530K00 and the carbon 18W/8545. How is this explained
Anyone about PHLs comprison with other components?
Thank you again for any help!
I think they are the same.. If you notice the size of the driver is quite a bit smaller in the photos than the older fostex sigma..They could however be the 7 inch version.
Also, those that have heard this design say that the new version is SUBSTANTIALLY better.. note that I believe Thorsten is currently listening to these speakers (under review) so you might do an "ATTEN" to him here (undre his psuedo-name: Kuei) to get his take on the drivers.
Also, those that have heard this design say that the new version is SUBSTANTIALLY better.. note that I believe Thorsten is currently listening to these speakers (under review) so you might do an "ATTEN" to him here (undre his psuedo-name: Kuei) to get his take on the drivers.
Please Steve M answer some of my questions!
Are the ER-Audio ESL 3 as musical as the WAR AUDIO Tower?
Is the ESL 3 very good at playing any type of music except for heavy bass, heavy metal etc, like pop and others?
If I put a subwoofer from 150hz using two Eton 11"
whould that thing help the ESL 3 have better low-midrange dynamics,be more rythmic,more lively and also have very good bass till 25hz?
Are the ESL 3 having very narrow sweet spot in contrast to Martin Logans?
Can I order the ER-Audio without paying from my credit card?
Is the Accutons as musical as ATC dome?
Do you know the crossover points of the Accuton Raven Cabasse system? How was the bass of the Cabasse?
Which crossover point did you pick between the double Fostex and Eton 11"?
Does the Raven R1 have good enough vertical dispersion (due to less longer ribbon)?
Do the Eton midranges have nearly the same sound signature with the Excels (like a bit of cold sound)?
If these quastions are too much for you (which they are for me) please answer at least the ESL questions...
Thank you very very much for your interest!
Are the ER-Audio ESL 3 as musical as the WAR AUDIO Tower?
Is the ESL 3 very good at playing any type of music except for heavy bass, heavy metal etc, like pop and others?
If I put a subwoofer from 150hz using two Eton 11"
whould that thing help the ESL 3 have better low-midrange dynamics,be more rythmic,more lively and also have very good bass till 25hz?
Are the ESL 3 having very narrow sweet spot in contrast to Martin Logans?
Can I order the ER-Audio without paying from my credit card?
Is the Accutons as musical as ATC dome?
Do you know the crossover points of the Accuton Raven Cabasse system? How was the bass of the Cabasse?
Which crossover point did you pick between the double Fostex and Eton 11"?
Does the Raven R1 have good enough vertical dispersion (due to less longer ribbon)?
Do the Eton midranges have nearly the same sound signature with the Excels (like a bit of cold sound)?
If these quastions are too much for you (which they are for me) please answer at least the ESL questions...
Thank you very very much for your interest!
Hi Michael,
Sorry for not responding earlier as I've been a bit busy at work and with family, but to answer your questions...
The ER Audio ESL-3 electrostat is the BEST speaker I have ever heard period! And suits my musical tastes (which is predominantly acoustic guitars; female vocals; soft jazz and blues; bluegrass; celtic folk; some classical and anything else that is well recorded). This speaker is just hyper-detailed and is an electron microscope's view on the recording, you will absolutely hear everything laid bare. Transient response is off the Richter Scale! The 3.8 micron ultra thin mylar membrane stops and starts quicker than any other cone material you care to mention (including any ribbon foil) so there is no smearing to musical notes, no overhang, no box coloration or distortion that I can hear...just pure musical notes hanging in the air in front of you. Alas, like most things in life nothing's perfect. The sound of this speaker is razor sharp and revealing (if that is a bad thing anyway?), it cannot be played real loud and would not suit heavy metal or loud rock 'n' roll music. The bass needs help from a sub-woofer and I like to use Transmission Line subs with this ESL, like the one shown on Sheldon Stokes ESL website.
Yes, two 11" Etons in BR boxes or TL would go very well with the ESL-3.
Yes, like all electrostats the ESL-3 has a very narrow sweet spot ( which becomes irrelevant once you hear what it does!). It is however a curvilinear design and is supposed to have better dispersion than a flat panel design. The imaging in the sweet spot is simply superb, everything is locked in rock tight and you can clearly locate the position of every musician on stage.
Yes, I think you can pay by credit card but you'll have to email Rob Mackinlay at ER Audio to confirm?? Please note, I have no affiliation with this company and am just a happy user of the ESL-3.
The Raven/Accuton/Cabasse speaker array does a similar trick to the electrostat and is very good indeed, however, it is not quite as fast, not quite as detailed as the ESL-3. That said, many people may find this speaker to be better balanced than the ESL-3 in that it is very smooth and refined and can be played at much louder levels. This speaker is actually a commercial product built by a company called W.A.R Audio in Australia (see www.warco.com.au ) and is called a 'Reference Two'. It was a one-off $15,000 statement product in it's time, with uncompromised build quality, ie, a 90kg three layer one inch thick cabinet; Audioquest Dragon cabling; good caps and custom aircore inductors; expensive drivers and with about $2000 worth of Blackhole 5 & PAD sound deadening material. I would desribe the sound as neutral and accurate with very little box coloration. The bass IMO while tonally accurate and fast, is a little controlled for my liking. I don't really know what the crossover points are, but would guess it is roughly around 500 Hz & 2500 Hz.
Yes, the Accutons are very musical in combination with the Raven R-1. They sound sweet and tonally 'just right' (as Goldilocks would say about her porridge). I guess if you are not after that last ounce of midrange detail, then the ATC could be considered to be more musical (in a non-audiophile way).
I have not really noticed a problem with the R-1's vertical dispersion. It is really quite good and essentially behaves like most dome tweeters I've used.
I don't know anything about Eton midrange drivers as I've never heard them. The Seas Excel magnesiums are very good and I can appreciate that people like them, but to my ears they are tonally not quite right. I have heard them in four different and quite expensive systems and the result was the same everytime...a slightly 'crunchy' sound. Although, in the well reviewed and well liked Jamo Concert 8 (European Speaker of the Year) that I once owned the Seas drivers sounded excel-lent (pun intended).
I have a soft spot for the Fostex 206E + Eton 11" combination for it's uniquely lively sound. In a lot of ways it is the best of cone sound bringing life and vibrancy to music. The BR loaded Eton units are actively crossed around 85 Hz via a plate amp to match the natural roll-off of the 206E in the 20L box, the 206E at the top is run as an Open Baffle and sounds nice and free and open as all dipoles do. To my ears the double Fostex option loses none of the single driver's point source imaging quality, and adds lushness, extra treble and a room filling soundstage in my rather large listening room (7m x 8.5m).
Sorry for the long reply, but you did ask a lot of questions !!
Regards,
Steve M.
Sorry for not responding earlier as I've been a bit busy at work and with family, but to answer your questions...
The ER Audio ESL-3 electrostat is the BEST speaker I have ever heard period! And suits my musical tastes (which is predominantly acoustic guitars; female vocals; soft jazz and blues; bluegrass; celtic folk; some classical and anything else that is well recorded). This speaker is just hyper-detailed and is an electron microscope's view on the recording, you will absolutely hear everything laid bare. Transient response is off the Richter Scale! The 3.8 micron ultra thin mylar membrane stops and starts quicker than any other cone material you care to mention (including any ribbon foil) so there is no smearing to musical notes, no overhang, no box coloration or distortion that I can hear...just pure musical notes hanging in the air in front of you. Alas, like most things in life nothing's perfect. The sound of this speaker is razor sharp and revealing (if that is a bad thing anyway?), it cannot be played real loud and would not suit heavy metal or loud rock 'n' roll music. The bass needs help from a sub-woofer and I like to use Transmission Line subs with this ESL, like the one shown on Sheldon Stokes ESL website.
Yes, two 11" Etons in BR boxes or TL would go very well with the ESL-3.
Yes, like all electrostats the ESL-3 has a very narrow sweet spot ( which becomes irrelevant once you hear what it does!). It is however a curvilinear design and is supposed to have better dispersion than a flat panel design. The imaging in the sweet spot is simply superb, everything is locked in rock tight and you can clearly locate the position of every musician on stage.
Yes, I think you can pay by credit card but you'll have to email Rob Mackinlay at ER Audio to confirm?? Please note, I have no affiliation with this company and am just a happy user of the ESL-3.
The Raven/Accuton/Cabasse speaker array does a similar trick to the electrostat and is very good indeed, however, it is not quite as fast, not quite as detailed as the ESL-3. That said, many people may find this speaker to be better balanced than the ESL-3 in that it is very smooth and refined and can be played at much louder levels. This speaker is actually a commercial product built by a company called W.A.R Audio in Australia (see www.warco.com.au ) and is called a 'Reference Two'. It was a one-off $15,000 statement product in it's time, with uncompromised build quality, ie, a 90kg three layer one inch thick cabinet; Audioquest Dragon cabling; good caps and custom aircore inductors; expensive drivers and with about $2000 worth of Blackhole 5 & PAD sound deadening material. I would desribe the sound as neutral and accurate with very little box coloration. The bass IMO while tonally accurate and fast, is a little controlled for my liking. I don't really know what the crossover points are, but would guess it is roughly around 500 Hz & 2500 Hz.
Yes, the Accutons are very musical in combination with the Raven R-1. They sound sweet and tonally 'just right' (as Goldilocks would say about her porridge). I guess if you are not after that last ounce of midrange detail, then the ATC could be considered to be more musical (in a non-audiophile way).
I have not really noticed a problem with the R-1's vertical dispersion. It is really quite good and essentially behaves like most dome tweeters I've used.
I don't know anything about Eton midrange drivers as I've never heard them. The Seas Excel magnesiums are very good and I can appreciate that people like them, but to my ears they are tonally not quite right. I have heard them in four different and quite expensive systems and the result was the same everytime...a slightly 'crunchy' sound. Although, in the well reviewed and well liked Jamo Concert 8 (European Speaker of the Year) that I once owned the Seas drivers sounded excel-lent (pun intended).
I have a soft spot for the Fostex 206E + Eton 11" combination for it's uniquely lively sound. In a lot of ways it is the best of cone sound bringing life and vibrancy to music. The BR loaded Eton units are actively crossed around 85 Hz via a plate amp to match the natural roll-off of the 206E in the 20L box, the 206E at the top is run as an Open Baffle and sounds nice and free and open as all dipoles do. To my ears the double Fostex option loses none of the single driver's point source imaging quality, and adds lushness, extra treble and a room filling soundstage in my rather large listening room (7m x 8.5m).
Sorry for the long reply, but you did ask a lot of questions !!
Regards,
Steve M.
Wow thanks Steven M for the reply even it was a bit long( hehe!)!
I couldn't image that you could spend so much time for my quastions (many)!
Just a few last things...
You said that they are sharp sounding. Is that causing any ear fatigue?
I have auditioned the Martin Logan Aeon and Clarity and I really liked their sound (except for unmatched bass) but I know ESL 3 will be better (even without the Eton Sub). Also I have not heard any Quads or Magnepans but I Listened once to some dead sounding
Greek Magnetostats/Ribbon (Analysis Omega/ 4500Euro). Is that a factor for thinking that I may not like the ESLs 3?
How the ESL 3s can manage the complex sound material?
Can it play till 105-107db (without a sub)? (Although I rarely listen to levels above 90 db)
Is it lively and dynamic with the addition of a sub?
Also in the HifI-World Review of ESL 3 i read that " The system has
always produced a reasonable stage,
but distinctions between instruments
in roughly the same location has
always eluded it, until now." What do you think?
Some others said that the inferior ESL 5 had many problems due to height? Should I think about it?
Thanks for your great help,that I really appreciate!
I am trying to find my way in the DIY Audio! Ouf
I couldn't image that you could spend so much time for my quastions (many)!
Just a few last things...
You said that they are sharp sounding. Is that causing any ear fatigue?
I have auditioned the Martin Logan Aeon and Clarity and I really liked their sound (except for unmatched bass) but I know ESL 3 will be better (even without the Eton Sub). Also I have not heard any Quads or Magnepans but I Listened once to some dead sounding
Greek Magnetostats/Ribbon (Analysis Omega/ 4500Euro). Is that a factor for thinking that I may not like the ESLs 3?How the ESL 3s can manage the complex sound material?
Can it play till 105-107db (without a sub)? (Although I rarely listen to levels above 90 db)
Is it lively and dynamic with the addition of a sub?
Also in the HifI-World Review of ESL 3 i read that " The system has
always produced a reasonable stage,
but distinctions between instruments
in roughly the same location has
always eluded it, until now." What do you think?
Some others said that the inferior ESL 5 had many problems due to height? Should I think about it?
Thanks for your great help,that I really appreciate!
I am trying to find my way in the DIY Audio! Ouf
So many questions Michael! but here goes again...
* no fatigue with ESL-3 just pure, fast uncolored music!
* ESL-3 is better than any Martin Logan I've heard, the ESL-3 membrane is 3.8micron, ML about 30micron. Results are ESL-3 is much faster/more detailed, but ML will porobably produce more bass and will play louder becuase it's membrane can be driven harder by big s.s amps.
*ESL-3 should be better than an Analysis/Omega panel due to same reasons of membrane thickness
*Don't get me wrong the ESL-3 plays quietly but is a very dynamic and lively speaker, with or without subs. They just don't play as loud as cone speakers and I'd say about 95dB would be the ESL-3's loudness limit (about 11.00 o'clock on the volume dial). Please do not mistake 'loudness' for 'dynamics' as most peple tend to do. To me dynamics is about all the little shifts in tonality, nuance and inflection in the music making the listening experience more realistic. Lots of speakers can play loud but not many can reproduce the 'little events'...the ESL-3 is VERY dynamic in this respect! Complex material does not phase it all because it untangles all the musical strands easily to reproduce the smallest detail.
* the subwoofer is essential with any electrostat. It's not that I am chasing large amounts of bass, just that a good foundation of bass is at the root of all music. Good bass imparts richness to the performance, evokes emotion and lets the midrange and treble stand proud. I highly recommend you build the TL sub shown on Sheldon Stoke's ESL website. I've tried BR/Sealed/Dipole & TL bass and I prefer the TL bass, it goes deeper and is faster and intrudes less on the ESL's delicate sound field.
*I have not heard the ESL-5 but have been told that is even more compromised in the bass. I would not go for it unless you are tight for space in your room.
Regards,
Steve M.
* no fatigue with ESL-3 just pure, fast uncolored music!
* ESL-3 is better than any Martin Logan I've heard, the ESL-3 membrane is 3.8micron, ML about 30micron. Results are ESL-3 is much faster/more detailed, but ML will porobably produce more bass and will play louder becuase it's membrane can be driven harder by big s.s amps.
*ESL-3 should be better than an Analysis/Omega panel due to same reasons of membrane thickness
*Don't get me wrong the ESL-3 plays quietly but is a very dynamic and lively speaker, with or without subs. They just don't play as loud as cone speakers and I'd say about 95dB would be the ESL-3's loudness limit (about 11.00 o'clock on the volume dial). Please do not mistake 'loudness' for 'dynamics' as most peple tend to do. To me dynamics is about all the little shifts in tonality, nuance and inflection in the music making the listening experience more realistic. Lots of speakers can play loud but not many can reproduce the 'little events'...the ESL-3 is VERY dynamic in this respect! Complex material does not phase it all because it untangles all the musical strands easily to reproduce the smallest detail.
* the subwoofer is essential with any electrostat. It's not that I am chasing large amounts of bass, just that a good foundation of bass is at the root of all music. Good bass imparts richness to the performance, evokes emotion and lets the midrange and treble stand proud. I highly recommend you build the TL sub shown on Sheldon Stoke's ESL website. I've tried BR/Sealed/Dipole & TL bass and I prefer the TL bass, it goes deeper and is faster and intrudes less on the ESL's delicate sound field.
*I have not heard the ESL-5 but have been told that is even more compromised in the bass. I would not go for it unless you are tight for space in your room.
Regards,
Steve M.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.