It seems that some of the best speaker designers spend years to design a high end speaker, with nearly all of that time spent on passive crossovers. I find that I'm very skeptical about this. Why does it take so long? After all that time, the result will be a speaker that is the best effort of that person to suit their own tastes, but to someone else it might be quite ordinary!
Is the difference between a professional and a diyer with some basic measuring equipment and a reasonable amount of time really that much?
This is going to be perhaps highly controversial!
Can a diyer do better than a professional spending years perfecting a passive crossover with:
* an active crossover which is much easier to design - bafflestep included along with notch filters if needed - very little design work needed I would imagine
* a digital crossover with something like the Behringer Ultradrive where you can say run a 3 way speaker which allows you to digitally time align the drivers which could also include the subs which can be placed for optimum smoothness with modes
* how does the transparency of digital crossovers / eqs compare to an active crossover / filters?
Food for thought:
Thorsten Loesch wrote an interesting review on the Behringer Ultracurve eq unit, and his comments were that it is as transparent as many other components placed in the audio chain like a preamp, but the improvement was quite dramatic:
Here is the review
Is the difference between a professional and a diyer with some basic measuring equipment and a reasonable amount of time really that much?
This is going to be perhaps highly controversial! Can a diyer do better than a professional spending years perfecting a passive crossover with:
* an active crossover which is much easier to design - bafflestep included along with notch filters if needed - very little design work needed I would imagine
* a digital crossover with something like the Behringer Ultradrive where you can say run a 3 way speaker which allows you to digitally time align the drivers which could also include the subs which can be placed for optimum smoothness with modes
* how does the transparency of digital crossovers / eqs compare to an active crossover / filters?
Food for thought:
Thorsten Loesch wrote an interesting review on the Behringer Ultracurve eq unit, and his comments were that it is as transparent as many other components placed in the audio chain like a preamp, but the improvement was quite dramatic:
Here is the review
I never bother with passive crossovers anymore; ever since I first built a bi-amped system some years ago and realized what a huge difference it made.
In my opinion, yes, even a fairly haphazard active crossover can outperform a passive crossover in many ways.
It is not only easier to design an active crossover (inculding various compensation networks), but it's possible to make them tunable too, which can help with room matching.
I've never used one myself, but theoretically a digital crossover could sound like anything you want.
In my opinion, yes, even a fairly haphazard active crossover can outperform a passive crossover in many ways.
It is not only easier to design an active crossover (inculding various compensation networks), but it's possible to make them tunable too, which can help with room matching.
I've never used one myself, but theoretically a digital crossover could sound like anything you want.
Not controversial at all. A skilled diyer CAN do better than the pros since:
1. He's designing a speaker for a known environment.
2. He has complete control over what sort of amp/amps are driving the speakers.
3. He's got an audience of one to please.
4. He can customize the crossover (electronic or otherwise) to the specific set of drivers he's using without regard to scale-up and mass production.
1. He's designing a speaker for a known environment.
2. He has complete control over what sort of amp/amps are driving the speakers.
3. He's got an audience of one to please.
4. He can customize the crossover (electronic or otherwise) to the specific set of drivers he's using without regard to scale-up and mass production.
I asked Colin Whatmough (Whatmough speakers) if he had considered active designs. That was after listening to speakers he had designed worth AUD $25k with $10k amps, very high end stuff.
His response was that he thought it was too expensive. He obviously thinks its better to spend more on ultra high end amps and drivers, etc. The speakers were excellent, flawless.
Still, I went away thinking that it would surely be possible to achieve the same result more cheaply with an active system. I could tell the room was messing with the bass as there were audible dips in the response. I went home to hear my system on the same track I heard on his system. Not quite as good, but the differences were subtle, at least when buffered by a half hour drive in between, although I would have picked more in an AB comparison.
His response was that he thought it was too expensive. He obviously thinks its better to spend more on ultra high end amps and drivers, etc. The speakers were excellent, flawless.
Still, I went away thinking that it would surely be possible to achieve the same result more cheaply with an active system. I could tell the room was messing with the bass as there were audible dips in the response. I went home to hear my system on the same track I heard on his system. Not quite as good, but the differences were subtle, at least when buffered by a half hour drive in between, although I would have picked more in an AB comparison.
Well, I would guess some of the reasons would be, that not everyone wants, say, six big monoblock amps taking up all the floor space in the listen(re:living) room. Also, as mentioned before, there's the added cost of the extra channels of amplification, plus more interconnect and speaker wire to deal with. From a commercial point of view, it just seems like it would be that much more difficult to sell an active speaker because of the above mentioned issues.
As for DIY'ers, many don't know how to do the electronics side, and for some (unknown to me) reason, there seems to be a bit of a stigma against active speakers.
As for DIY'ers, many don't know how to do the electronics side, and for some (unknown to me) reason, there seems to be a bit of a stigma against active speakers.
Stigma against active speakers? I didn't know this!
Yes, lots of amps is an issue ...
one further advantage is that you can choose amps to match the speakers better. eg. you can use a small diy class A amp for the tweeter, a valve amp for the mids (if that's what floats ya boat), but a more chunky solid state amp for the bass!
Again I ask, does anyone think passive sounds better?
Is the idea that a diyer can easily better passives with active or digital flawed?
Yes, lots of amps is an issue ...
one further advantage is that you can choose amps to match the speakers better. eg. you can use a small diy class A amp for the tweeter, a valve amp for the mids (if that's what floats ya boat), but a more chunky solid state amp for the bass!
Again I ask, does anyone think passive sounds better?
Is the idea that a diyer can easily better passives with active or digital flawed?
Passive crossovers can take care of lots of things an active does not deal with. Like bumps in response within a drivers bandwidth etc. You also only need one good amp rather than multiple good ones. There are less active(noise inducing, signal degrading) stages in the path. A good electronic crossover can cost more than 10 times that of a passive.
Although actives tend to do everything technically better, there are some very musical passive designs which "stir the emotions", for one reason or other.
Actives tend to be more business like in their approach to music making, but that could linked to the market/price band they're in, rather than the fact that they're actively driven.
Actives tend to be more business like in their approach to music making, but that could linked to the market/price band they're in, rather than the fact that they're actively driven.
What is now already here is DEQX, digital equalization that can be tailored to specific speakers or rooms or whatever, and the hardware can be used with discrete bandwidth amplification or broadband. What this portends is using simple passive crossovers for driver bandwidth splitting and impedance purposes while the fine tuning of the response is handled by the DEQ; I'm using a Behringer 8024 in my recording studio to do just that. Alternately you'll also see more and more speakers with DEQ feeding discrete class D and/or T internal amps for each driver. As far as the future of sophisticated passive crossovers is concerned it's about as bright as that of the rotary dial telephone.
I fully agree with that !
Those who think that one would have to use six expensive monoblocks insted of one expensive stereo amp must not forget that multiple cheaper amps can beat more expensive single ones in active use.
Going fully active makes given drivers and amps play in a higher league. And the difference is NOT small !
Regards
Charles
Bill,
you make some interesting points. Are you suggesting that it is still worthwhile to use passive crossovers for bandwidth division only? (keep in mind, I'm referring to home audio here only). Why not operate competely in the digital domain?
Another question - where bi or triamping is happening, which is better regarding integrity of the signal - digital or active?
you make some interesting points. Are you suggesting that it is still worthwhile to use passive crossovers for bandwidth division only? (keep in mind, I'm referring to home audio here only). Why not operate competely in the digital domain?
Another question - where bi or triamping is happening, which is better regarding integrity of the signal - digital or active?
The one time I looked on the Naim forum, the posters there were recommending to upgrade the amp and retain passive operation, rather than buy another of the same amp and go active.
People talk about passive being transparant and less in the signal path, no noise, etc. but remain oblivious to the fact that the passive system is totally degrading the sound due to impedance mismatches, response irregularities and lack of damping.
People talk about passive being transparant and less in the signal path, no noise, etc. but remain oblivious to the fact that the passive system is totally degrading the sound due to impedance mismatches, response irregularities and lack of damping.
Richie, I'm inclined to think that the idea that passives are better in the signal path than active crossovers or digital due merely to perception. People are used to the idea of passive crossovers. Somehow the idea of digital immediately makes us think there is more loss in fidelity as we know that sound is analogue in nature. And of course, intuition tells us that a few passive components are less intrusive in the signal path than a pile of op amps, resistors and capacitors in an active system ... or all that processing in a digital unit.
Still, the more I look into the influence of the room, the more I think that we chase after tiny little differences, while overlooking a very ugly contribution of the room. ie. I suspect in audio the trend is to major on minor issues, but leave out dealing with the big ones.
Isn't it a bit silly to worry about what a cheap cable does to the sound, when you room has a 25db dip right in the middle of the bass?
Still, the more I look into the influence of the room, the more I think that we chase after tiny little differences, while overlooking a very ugly contribution of the room. ie. I suspect in audio the trend is to major on minor issues, but leave out dealing with the big ones.
Isn't it a bit silly to worry about what a cheap cable does to the sound, when you room has a 25db dip right in the middle of the bass?
richie00boy said:
This has confused me for years now! The ESP Benefits of Bi-Amping (Not Quite Magic, But Close) article "suggests", to me that the Naim users would always be better off keeping smaller amps and going active. But upgrading the amps to top spec first, is the tried and tested prefered upgrade path
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