Multi-driver, horizontal center speaker with TB-871? - Page 2

Timn8ter · 3rd September 2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by morbo

W4s firing inwards as in the vandersteen design? And how would one cross such a thing?

I wasn't thinking of the Vandersteen design, in fact I was just thinking out loud. I've been experimenting with two W4s and two W3s but it's still a work in progress. Bill's suggestion of using the W5 woofer may be closer to the mark, however, I think having an F3 below 60Hz would only be necessary if you're doing multi-channel music without a sub.

navin · 4th September 2004, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by morbo
... Also I'm not sure whether the design is contingent on using the external fullrange driver and inward firing mid/basses or not. I'd like to avoid crossovers if possible...

Quote:

Originally posted by Timn8ter
I kinda like this idea although I don't think you'd need to make it as complicated as the Vandersteen. Maybe a pair of W4s in a vented chamber and a W3 in a sealed.
Hmmm......

Quote:

Originally posted by morbo
W4s firing inwards as in the vandersteen design? And how would one cross such a thing?

hey guys i think that since the inner drivers are not directly radiating into the listenins space one can make do with no XO or at best a 1st order 300-500Hz. then again the best center may be no center at all (use phantom mode for center fill).

morbo · 14th October 2004, 10:43 PM

In case anyone is interested, I was intrigued by the idea of having a speaker on either side of the TV, run mono, as a center channel. I did a little experiment since I have 2 of the little ELF 1.0s. Normally I use 1 on top of the TV as my center, instead I set them up on either side of the TV. I lowered the level of the center and tried some movies. In the sweet spot, this sounds really good, certainly more dynamic and less restrained than the single 871 on top. Also, voices come from the center of the screen instead of just above it. It does look kind of funny though, the center speakers are almost closer to the mains than to each other in my setup (I am about 7 feet from the TV/speakers).

The problem was, as soon as I moved off axis, the center image started collapsing into the closer center speaker very sharply. This may just be because my seating is so close to the speakers, that the sweet spot is very small. But since the whole point of having the center channel is better off axis 'anchoring', I abandoned the idea, since my 'phantom' center sounds better than these 2 anyway

Still, it was a fun exercise and I learned something from it, nothing like testing these things yourself.

Timn8ter · 14th October 2004, 11:38 PM

Well, that's one down. How about having one speaker above and one below the picture? I think I tried that once but it's been a while. I think the WAF factor was about zero which is why I abandoned it rather quicky.

morbo · 14th October 2004, 11:57 PM

Thats a good idea, unfortunately in my setup there's no way to accomodate it. My TV stand is made up of 2 wide, short TV stands side by side. So there is no cavity dead center below the TV that I could use.

In fact I may just sacrifice the top end for the low end, and build a similar single driver center channel using the CSS 4.5" XBL driver. This would have better power handling and low end response, but lose out on the high end. Not much dialogue up there anyway

so it might be ok.

OR, I may nix the idea altogether. You see, I was planning on moving the ELF 1.0s up to a nearfield, 'personal reference' computer setup I'm building once I upgraded by center. Since I've started using the phantom center for personal listening (to great effect I might add), maybe I'd be better off spending my money on something better for the nearfield system, which will get hours of daily use, than on this center, which only gets turned on once a week at most. Besides, it only benefits my off-axis listeners, and frankly my non-audiophile friends are not going to notice the improvement anyway, they already think I'm crazy for spending money on this stuff

Decisions decisions.

BillFitzmaurice · 15th October 2004, 12:21 PM

Quote:

center speakers are almost closer to the mains than to each other in my setup (I am about 7 feet from the TV/speakers).

That's the problem, with the speakers spread wide and the listening position so close you're too close to the soundfield of the one and too far from the other when you go off-axis.

Timn8ter · 15th October 2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

I was planning on moving the ELF 1.0s up to a nearfield, 'personal reference' computer setup I'm building once I upgraded by center.

Good idea. That's what I use along with my S5 Electronics tube amp. Sounds great for a little near-field system.
http://www.timn8er.com/s5_electronics_k.htm

Quote:

Since I've started using the phantom center for personal listening (to great effect I might add), maybe I'd be better off spending my money on something better for the nearfield system,

I'm beginning to believe that a phantom center is the way to go in HT unless you have a big screen that can have sound coming directly from it. I'm still thinking that in the future, when I switch to a front projector, an upper and lower center may work.

planet10 · 15th October 2004, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timn8ter
I'm beginning to believe that a phantom center is the way to go in HT

ditto...

dave

johninCR · 15th October 2004, 06:49 PM

A horizontal bessel array works great for a center channel because it disperses like a point source and gives you some efficiency increase over a single driver. I believe the wiring for a 5 driver bessel is +1, -2, +2, +1, -1 . The minus drivers are just out of phase and the 2s get twice the power of the 1s through a combination of series/parallel wiring.

morbo · 15th October 2004, 07:19 PM

Yeah I saw a few folks on here recommend bessell arrays and I got pretty excited about the idea, seemed perfect. However when I started reading about them, I found that you have to be fairly far away from the speakers for the array to 'gel'. Since I am about 6-7' from my center channel, it seemed that it would not be useful in my situation. Otherwise, I'd jump on a 5 x 871 array in a heartbeat.

15th October 2004, 06:49 PM	#19
johninCR diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Costa Rica	A horizontal bessel array works great for a center channel because it disperses like a point source and gives you some efficiency increase over a single driver. I believe the wiring for a 5 driver bessel is +1, -2, +2, +1, -1 . The minus drivers are just out of phase and the 2s get twice the power of the 1s through a combination of series/parallel wiring. __________________ Everyone has a photographic memory. It's just that most are out of film.

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14th October 2004, 10:43 PM	#13
morbo diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Guelph, Ontario	In case anyone is interested, I was intrigued by the idea of having a speaker on either side of the TV, run mono, as a center channel. I did a little experiment since I have 2 of the little ELF 1.0s. Normally I use 1 on top of the TV as my center, instead I set them up on either side of the TV. I lowered the level of the center and tried some movies. In the sweet spot, this sounds really good, certainly more dynamic and less restrained than the single 871 on top. Also, voices come from the center of the screen instead of just above it. It does look kind of funny though, the center speakers are almost closer to the mains than to each other in my setup (I am about 7 feet from the TV/speakers). The problem was, as soon as I moved off axis, the center image started collapsing into the closer center speaker very sharply. This may just be because my seating is so close to the speakers, that the sweet spot is very small. But since the whole point of having the center channel is better off axis 'anchoring', I abandoned the idea, since my 'phantom' center sounds better than these 2 anyway Still, it was a fun exercise and I learned something from it, nothing like testing these things yourself.

14th October 2004, 11:38 PM	#14
Timn8ter diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	Well, that's one down. How about having one speaker above and one below the picture? I think I tried that once but it's been a while. I think the WAF factor was about zero which is why I abandoned it rather quicky.

14th October 2004, 11:57 PM	#15
morbo diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Guelph, Ontario	Thats a good idea, unfortunately in my setup there's no way to accomodate it. My TV stand is made up of 2 wide, short TV stands side by side. So there is no cavity dead center below the TV that I could use. In fact I may just sacrifice the top end for the low end, and build a similar single driver center channel using the CSS 4.5" XBL driver. This would have better power handling and low end response, but lose out on the high end. Not much dialogue up there anyway so it might be ok. OR, I may nix the idea altogether. You see, I was planning on moving the ELF 1.0s up to a nearfield, 'personal reference' computer setup I'm building once I upgraded by center. Since I've started using the phantom center for personal listening (to great effect I might add), maybe I'd be better off spending my money on something better for the nearfield system, which will get hours of daily use, than on this center, which only gets turned on once a week at most. Besides, it only benefits my off-axis listeners, and frankly my non-audiophile friends are not going to notice the improvement anyway, they already think I'm crazy for spending money on this stuff Decisions decisions.

15th October 2004, 07:19 PM	#20
morbo diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Guelph, Ontario	Yeah I saw a few folks on here recommend bessell arrays and I got pretty excited about the idea, seemed perfect. However when I started reading about them, I found that you have to be fairly far away from the speakers for the array to 'gel'. Since I am about 6-7' from my center channel, it seemed that it would not be useful in my situation. Otherwise, I'd jump on a 5 x 871 array in a heartbeat.