Note: Please forgive any stoopid questions, I'm new to this ...
Background: I'm going to build Linkwitz Phoenix speakers for my first DIY speaker project. Long-term plans are to build the Orions afterwards, and then use the Phoenix as rear surround speakers. For better speaker matching, I think it would be best to use the same drivers in both the Phoenix and Orions. I now have the Phoenix plans / Orion Crossover boards. I am ready to make my driver purchases ...
So, here's my questions:
1) Is there any reason the Phoenix won't work well for a Home Theater system? I'm a little concerned about available SPL levels and possible blown drivers - which I haven't ever worried about before with my Martin Logan Quests.
2) Has anyone here built the Linkwitz Phoenix with the Orions SEAS drivers?
3) If so, what changes are made to the crossovers? How did you calculate the changes?
4) I already own a Hsu research TN-1220HO subwoofer, so I wasn't planning on building a subwoofer for the Phoenix. Is there any reason I shouldn't use the Hsu Research sub? It's a pretty amazing sub, going clean down to -3 db @ 16 Hz in my room. It's effortless and never overpowering (except during movie playback, occasionally)
5) If I keep the TN-1220, any ideas on how I might change the crossover to blend well with the Hsu subwoofer? I think that I may have to raise the TN-1220's crossover frequency (currently at 55 Hz), since the Phoenix appears to have a crossover at 100 Hz.
Thanks!
Background: I'm going to build Linkwitz Phoenix speakers for my first DIY speaker project. Long-term plans are to build the Orions afterwards, and then use the Phoenix as rear surround speakers. For better speaker matching, I think it would be best to use the same drivers in both the Phoenix and Orions. I now have the Phoenix plans / Orion Crossover boards. I am ready to make my driver purchases ...
So, here's my questions:
1) Is there any reason the Phoenix won't work well for a Home Theater system? I'm a little concerned about available SPL levels and possible blown drivers - which I haven't ever worried about before with my Martin Logan Quests.
2) Has anyone here built the Linkwitz Phoenix with the Orions SEAS drivers?
3) If so, what changes are made to the crossovers? How did you calculate the changes?
4) I already own a Hsu research TN-1220HO subwoofer, so I wasn't planning on building a subwoofer for the Phoenix. Is there any reason I shouldn't use the Hsu Research sub? It's a pretty amazing sub, going clean down to -3 db @ 16 Hz in my room. It's effortless and never overpowering (except during movie playback, occasionally)
5) If I keep the TN-1220, any ideas on how I might change the crossover to blend well with the Hsu subwoofer? I think that I may have to raise the TN-1220's crossover frequency (currently at 55 Hz), since the Phoenix appears to have a crossover at 100 Hz.
Thanks!
QUOTE]1) Is there any reason the Phoenix won't work well for a Home Theater system? I'm a little concerned about available SPL levels and possible blown drivers - which I haven't ever worried about before with my Martin Logan Quests.[/QUOTE]
Linkwitz FAQ #3
The dipole woofer is an important element of the system. If you cross over the Phoenix woofer to the sub at 40 Hz, the system should be useful for both music and home theater.
HTH
Doug
Linkwitz FAQ #3
Linkwitz FAQ #36
IMHO, the Phoenix is a 3 way that lacks a sub-woofer.
The dipole woofer is an important element of the system. If you cross over the Phoenix woofer to the sub at 40 Hz, the system should be useful for both music and home theater.
HTH
Doug
Doug - Thanks for responding back. I had seen those answers on LinkwitzLab's site previously.
I already have the design plans for the Phoenix speakers. One of the things that Siegfried states on the Introduction page regarding the Seas drivers is, "I cannot provide you with the circuit changes that may become necessary, because I have never built this configuration."
So, I was hoping that someone here has done some research and tried building with the Seas drivers instead of the Scan-Speak drivers.
Also, thanks for your point on the Phoenix woofer - I guess I'll be building one now.
I already have the design plans for the Phoenix speakers. One of the things that Siegfried states on the Introduction page regarding the Seas drivers is, "I cannot provide you with the circuit changes that may become necessary, because I have never built this configuration."
So, I was hoping that someone here has done some research and tried building with the Seas drivers instead of the Scan-Speak drivers.
Also, thanks for your point on the Phoenix woofer - I guess I'll be building one now.
I am also thinking about building the Phoenix. I don't see why you would use them as rears and the Orion's as fronts though?
The Phoenix is capable of a higher SPL than the Orion, which is just what you need for the fronts. And the Phoenix is not a bad speaker to my understanding, Mr Linkwitz states it is sonically almost identical to the Beethoven system...
As far as I can deduct from www.linkwitzlab.com, the Orion is a better speaker with the 8" Seas units than the Phoenix with the 8" ScanSpeak drivers. I asked Mr Linkwitz in an e-mail about using a ScanSpeak 99000 and the 8" Excel driver from the Orion in the Phoenix and here is the reply:
" You will be quite close with the 9900 and Seas 8" drivers. Have fun tweaking the last bit "
It seems you won't be that far off with the Seas 8" driver.
Here are some links about different Phoenix and Orion version:
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/Digital_SEAS_Winged_Phoenix_Final.htm
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/gallery/s_1000/0008.html
http://www.mfk-projects.com/orio_n.htm
http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
http://www.chriscaudle.com/phoenix.html
http://home.insightbb.com/~stephenwmoore/Speakers/Linkwitz_Main.htm
http://www.geocities.com/linn_sondek2002/orion/
http://www.mfk-projects.com/
http://www.members.tripod.com/jimmcdougall/home.htm
http://members.iinet.net.au/~wallaroo/index.html
I do belive I will build the Phoenix with the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters and the 8" Seas Excel woofers. The reason for this is that I already have the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters from another project. I can get the 8" Seas drivers cheap from a friend, so it is a given how my Phoenix will be. I also have 4 x 12" Peerless XLS woofer from a subwoofer I built some time ago, so I am almost Phoenix ready without even knowing it. If I wasn't, I would build the Orion. It is a bit smaller and more domestic. Also have eigth 8" aluminium woofers from Seas ( H0956 ) laying around from another subwoofer, will make two " Thor's " with these. Ie use the linkwitz transform and push them down the low 20 Hz's...
All this will be driven with a six channel ICE power 250 modules.
My woofers will be like this:
Each woofer:
On the bottom there will be an amp with 3 x ICE power and a 250W class A/B amp. This enclousure will be incorporated into an extended dipole woofer frame. Ie a taller sub.
Next we find the dipole woofer itself.
On top of that, with the same dimensions as the extended dipole sub and amp, we find the four 8" Thorish sub.
That will leave me with a stacked woofer system measuring 20"x20"x40". If I feel like redecorating, I can move position the woofers individually and have four boxes of 20" x 20" x 20" each.
The main Phoenix panels will be left like they are with a hefty speaker stand fixed to the frame.
Please keep in touch if and when you do decide to build the Phoenix. I am currently flat broke, but will start building the subs very soon. Will purchase and build the main panels at a later stage.
The Phoenix is capable of a higher SPL than the Orion, which is just what you need for the fronts. And the Phoenix is not a bad speaker to my understanding, Mr Linkwitz states it is sonically almost identical to the Beethoven system...
As far as I can deduct from www.linkwitzlab.com, the Orion is a better speaker with the 8" Seas units than the Phoenix with the 8" ScanSpeak drivers. I asked Mr Linkwitz in an e-mail about using a ScanSpeak 99000 and the 8" Excel driver from the Orion in the Phoenix and here is the reply:
" You will be quite close with the 9900 and Seas 8" drivers. Have fun tweaking the last bit "
It seems you won't be that far off with the Seas 8" driver.
Here are some links about different Phoenix and Orion version:
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/Digital_SEAS_Winged_Phoenix_Final.htm
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/gallery/s_1000/0008.html
http://www.mfk-projects.com/orio_n.htm
http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm
http://www.chriscaudle.com/phoenix.html
http://home.insightbb.com/~stephenwmoore/Speakers/Linkwitz_Main.htm
http://www.geocities.com/linn_sondek2002/orion/
http://www.mfk-projects.com/
http://www.members.tripod.com/jimmcdougall/home.htm
http://members.iinet.net.au/~wallaroo/index.html
I do belive I will build the Phoenix with the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters and the 8" Seas Excel woofers. The reason for this is that I already have the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters from another project. I can get the 8" Seas drivers cheap from a friend, so it is a given how my Phoenix will be. I also have 4 x 12" Peerless XLS woofer from a subwoofer I built some time ago, so I am almost Phoenix ready without even knowing it. If I wasn't, I would build the Orion. It is a bit smaller and more domestic. Also have eigth 8" aluminium woofers from Seas ( H0956 ) laying around from another subwoofer, will make two " Thor's " with these. Ie use the linkwitz transform and push them down the low 20 Hz's...
All this will be driven with a six channel ICE power 250 modules.
My woofers will be like this:
Each woofer:
On the bottom there will be an amp with 3 x ICE power and a 250W class A/B amp. This enclousure will be incorporated into an extended dipole woofer frame. Ie a taller sub.
Next we find the dipole woofer itself.
On top of that, with the same dimensions as the extended dipole sub and amp, we find the four 8" Thorish sub.
That will leave me with a stacked woofer system measuring 20"x20"x40". If I feel like redecorating, I can move position the woofers individually and have four boxes of 20" x 20" x 20" each.
The main Phoenix panels will be left like they are with a hefty speaker stand fixed to the frame.
Please keep in touch if and when you do decide to build the Phoenix. I am currently flat broke, but will start building the subs very soon. Will purchase and build the main panels at a later stage.
Thanks, Dudster! Good information.
I suppose I could build 4 (or 5) Phoenixes for my surround system. It probably wouldn't suck too bad.
I got the impression that the Orions were significantly better, so I thought that I'd keep with that driver set. However, if adequate Home Theatre SPL will be a problem with the Orions, I may need to focus more on the Phoenix.
Has anyone here used the Orions for Home Theater? If so, do they get loud enough to reproduce the movie experience?
How about the Phoenix speakers for HT?
I suppose I could build 4 (or 5) Phoenixes for my surround system. It probably wouldn't suck too bad.
I got the impression that the Orions were significantly better, so I thought that I'd keep with that driver set. However, if adequate Home Theatre SPL will be a problem with the Orions, I may need to focus more on the Phoenix.
Has anyone here used the Orions for Home Theater? If so, do they get loud enough to reproduce the movie experience?
How about the Phoenix speakers for HT?
My understanding is that both can handle quite a lot of SPL, however they are bass limited. The main panels are quite efficient due to the output from the rear. The phoenix is very efficient from 250 Hz to the tweeter point. This isn't useable due the the efficiency limits of the bass and the tweeter. The Orion seems a smarter design as it uses just one 8" driver as two weren't really needed and it uses a higher order high pass filter. Rather than build the Phoenix, I think a better way to get high output might in fact be to use pairs of Orions if you want more output, but use the Phoenix woofer instead as the 12" xls in a W dipole gives better bang for buck.
For HT you should do room measurements to determine the lowest room mode as this will show you how high you can use your sub without needing eq for room modes. Ideally you would cross below the modal range of the room to a monopole subwoofer.
Why do this? Dipole bass is expensive and works best where there is room modes. For music you can mostly get away with dipoles but for home theatre you need crazy displacement to get down so low. For the ultimate I'd use dipoles in the modal range, then cross to infinite baffle.
What kind of movies do you like? For some movies you might find monopole bass more impressive.
Great project! I salute you for your courage and committment, this is a HUGE undertaking. You might search for a thread some months ago I started on ultimate HT and music speakers, which featured a phoenix HT system which was scaled up in size for higher SPL
For HT you should do room measurements to determine the lowest room mode as this will show you how high you can use your sub without needing eq for room modes. Ideally you would cross below the modal range of the room to a monopole subwoofer.
Why do this? Dipole bass is expensive and works best where there is room modes. For music you can mostly get away with dipoles but for home theatre you need crazy displacement to get down so low. For the ultimate I'd use dipoles in the modal range, then cross to infinite baffle.
What kind of movies do you like? For some movies you might find monopole bass more impressive.
Great project! I salute you for your courage and committment, this is a HUGE undertaking. You might search for a thread some months ago I started on ultimate HT and music speakers, which featured a phoenix HT system which was scaled up in size for higher SPL
pinkmouse said:
Agreed -
paulspencer said:
I just sold My Pheonix parts - I got into horns - and it looked like I wouldn't have the time and wouldn't want to spend the money to complete the Pheonix -
As a practical matter - the amplification and juice to run Pheonix or Orions for rears just is not feasible - Unless you have a ton of money and huge room - further - if you watch a wide range of movies that includes a lot of older stuff - IMHO, there just isn't that mutch information in the rear channels in most dvd's to warrant such an expenditure-
The Pheonix or Orion should do fine for fronts - if the room is larger - go with the Pheonix and if smaller Orion -
The shortcoming (if that's what it is) would be in the bass - the only negative comments I have seen about dipole bass is from a very few posters that believed they couldn't "feel" the bass as much as they should have - of course it may have been more accurate and honest but they appeared to be used to a "heavier" sound -
So - for HT you migh want sealed subs - for LFE - let's not forget that stands for Low Frequency Effects and seems to look, walk and talk like a musical subwoofer -but is actually a LFE sub in HT - similar but not the same--
Regards
Ken L
�GotJazz? said:
1. Yes (13x19x8' room, 87x49" screen on one 13' wall, Orions 4' off screen wall 8' apart, seating 11' from screen).
2. They work fine at reference level. Dipole displacement requirements increase 8X/octave meaning output limits decrease at 18dB/octave. This means that you can't run your screen channels full-range. I've felt lazy and been using an 80Hz 2nd order high pass to avoid problems, but have picked Linkwitz Transform component values to implement a 40Hz 4th order XO. Woofer xmax is reached at 82dB @ 20Hz, 100dB @ 40Hz, and I think the midrange hits xmax at 109dB @ 80Hz.
Sitting farther away will also increase your volume requirements.
I played with http://www.linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xls in determining whether the Orions would suit my needs.
3. A phantom center works reasonably well at my main seating position within a few feet of center. Closer or farther off-axis you want a real center. I will eventually build another top section so I can sit at 9' for good scope transfers.
4. I don't think the fidelity and front speaker matching requirements are especially high for ambiance in the surround channels.
Ken L said:
This is another reason why a monopole sub is a good idea - if youwant the bass to be a bit "heavier" (which in this case probably means less accurate) - then this gives you the flexibility. Raise the crossover point of the sub and you may find it a bit more fun for action movies and movies with a lot of bass.
One thing I have learnt about dipole bass is that it can be very fast (if you will excuse a controversial word) or it can also be boomy if not done right. I have a pair of thrown together computer speakers using some cheap drivers on an open baffle and they can go from one to the other depending on placement. Just a pair of 5.5" drivers on a 12 x 24" baffle with some eq @ 60 Hz.
Paul (and others) -
My listening room is fairly large: 22 ft. x 27 ft. in the main listening area. But, I also have an open air layout that actually makes it closer to 50 ft x 27 ft of total space - there's a 1/3 high wall that separates my listening room from my dining room.
I'm not sure what you are referring to when measuring for the "lowest room mode", but the next paragraph may have your answer:
My Hsu sub goes down smoothly to about 20 Hz, where there's a suddden and significant (12 db) drop due to cancellation from the 27 ft half-wavelength.
On your question about my movies: I use my system for both music and movies. While I don't listen to many "put you in a train wreck" movies, they do show up from time-to-time.
Considering the cost/availability of the drivers, I'm guess I'm a bit concerned about accidently blowing them during a movie. I'm not worried about damaging them with music - I just don't play it that loud.
Do you know if there's anyone that has successfully modified the Phoenix crossover to match with the Seas drivers? I would think if my long-term goal is to go with an Orion / Phoenix combo, I'd have a better sonic match if the drivers are all the same.
I'm pretty reluctant to make any wholesale changes to the crossover characteristics unless someone else has done thorough work. Since this is my first DIY speaker build, I'm inclined to "stick-to-the-plans". They may be somebody besides SL's plans, but I'm not ready to experiment on my own yet.
My listening room is fairly large: 22 ft. x 27 ft. in the main listening area. But, I also have an open air layout that actually makes it closer to 50 ft x 27 ft of total space - there's a 1/3 high wall that separates my listening room from my dining room.
I'm not sure what you are referring to when measuring for the "lowest room mode", but the next paragraph may have your answer:
My Hsu sub goes down smoothly to about 20 Hz, where there's a suddden and significant (12 db) drop due to cancellation from the 27 ft half-wavelength.
On your question about my movies: I use my system for both music and movies. While I don't listen to many "put you in a train wreck" movies, they do show up from time-to-time.
Considering the cost/availability of the drivers, I'm guess I'm a bit concerned about accidently blowing them during a movie. I'm not worried about damaging them with music - I just don't play it that loud.
Do you know if there's anyone that has successfully modified the Phoenix crossover to match with the Seas drivers? I would think if my long-term goal is to go with an Orion / Phoenix combo, I'd have a better sonic match if the drivers are all the same.
I'm pretty reluctant to make any wholesale changes to the crossover characteristics unless someone else has done thorough work. Since this is my first DIY speaker build, I'm inclined to "stick-to-the-plans". They may be somebody besides SL's plans, but I'm not ready to experiment on my own yet.
Ooops!
I see that other folks have posted since I started typing my response early this morning (above).
Drew - One thing I can say about driver matching: It's the main reason that I'm looking at replacing the speakers that I have used for about 10 years now.
I currently have Martin Logan Quest fronts, a Logos center, and conventional speaker rears in a bipolar arrangement.
Nothing I have done has allowed me to get usable rear surround effects from this setup. My main guess is that I need to get similar drive technology between my fronts (ESL) and rears (cone). I believe that the power / radiation characteristics are too dissimilar to get the rear effects to meld properly. I have used an SPL meter to get all my speakers within 0.5 dB of each other at my listening position.
What I hear for surround effects while doing test tracks is something like this:
Left Front - (smooth transition) - Center - (smooth transition) - Right Front - (wait a bit, then "snap to") - Right Rear - (smooth transition) - (wait a bit, then "snap to") - Left Front
When watching movies, I'll almost never hear any surround information, period. I have set up some surround systems for my friends using the same test disks & SPL meter, and their systems work fine for surround effects.
While I'll agree with everybody that surround channel information doesn't require as much detail as your front channels, I kind of think of it this way: For smoothest transitions from front-to-back (or vice-versa), think of the front/rear on each side as another set of stereo channels. Would you mix two different speakers for your front two main speakers? Of course not! There's almost no way that you'd get a decent sound stage. Well, I'm applying the same philosophy for my front-to-back speakers as well.
So, I'm looking at replacing my existing loudspeakers with a new setup, and I don't want to "step down" in sound quality (of course). I want the transparency that the MLs have given me over the years.
Also, the DIY route has lots of appeal to me for quite a few reasons. I'm sure you guys understand why, and probably even better than I do right now since I haven't really started yet.
I see that other folks have posted since I started typing my response early this morning (above).
Drew - One thing I can say about driver matching: It's the main reason that I'm looking at replacing the speakers that I have used for about 10 years now.
I currently have Martin Logan Quest fronts, a Logos center, and conventional speaker rears in a bipolar arrangement.
Nothing I have done has allowed me to get usable rear surround effects from this setup. My main guess is that I need to get similar drive technology between my fronts (ESL) and rears (cone). I believe that the power / radiation characteristics are too dissimilar to get the rear effects to meld properly. I have used an SPL meter to get all my speakers within 0.5 dB of each other at my listening position.
What I hear for surround effects while doing test tracks is something like this:
Left Front - (smooth transition) - Center - (smooth transition) - Right Front - (wait a bit, then "snap to") - Right Rear - (smooth transition) - (wait a bit, then "snap to") - Left Front
When watching movies, I'll almost never hear any surround information, period. I have set up some surround systems for my friends using the same test disks & SPL meter, and their systems work fine for surround effects.
While I'll agree with everybody that surround channel information doesn't require as much detail as your front channels, I kind of think of it this way: For smoothest transitions from front-to-back (or vice-versa), think of the front/rear on each side as another set of stereo channels. Would you mix two different speakers for your front two main speakers? Of course not! There's almost no way that you'd get a decent sound stage. Well, I'm applying the same philosophy for my front-to-back speakers as well.
So, I'm looking at replacing my existing loudspeakers with a new setup, and I don't want to "step down" in sound quality (of course). I want the transparency that the MLs have given me over the years.
Also, the DIY route has lots of appeal to me for quite a few reasons. I'm sure you guys understand why, and probably even better than I do right now since I haven't really started yet.
¿GotJazz? said:
Your room is very large (16.5m x 9m). This means a challenge to get bass output. I wouldn't use dipoles for a large space - not for bass that is.
Very small and very large spaces have a smooth room gain. Small spaces are too small for standing waves to develop in the bass range, and the space is uniformly pressurised, like in a car. In a very large room the modes become more densely spaced until you reach the Shroeder frequency - the region above this in the frequency domain is called the geometric acoustics region - sound waves travel as rays here. In a comercial cinema, the Shroeder frequency is below the audio bandwidth.
I had a go at entering your room into the FRDC room response calculator and got some intersting results. Dipoles didn't seem to help the response much at all. In fact the smoothest in room bass was from two monopoles placed diagonally opposite each other.
Firstly a chart with one sub in the corner (actually moved out 2m from the corner):
Attachments
Experimenting a little further I have found some better combinations. You can get a room gain response of about +/- 4 db with some tweaking - different positions with two subs.
This clever little application will also do dipoles, and it is interesting to note that in your room, the room response isn't as smooth as you might expect. In fact it appears to offer no real improvement.
Whatever you do with the bass, it seems that eq is still needed.
Regarding your concerns with output for home theatre, I'd say this concern is most prominent with the bass. This is the first place to look at. An important decision is the point at which you cross from dipole to monopole. For high output you could dispense with dipole bass below 80 Hz. You could choose some woofers and operate them from 80 - 300 Hz.
Here is a Phoenix HT speaker scaled up in output by the addition of 10" woofers:
This clever little application will also do dipoles, and it is interesting to note that in your room, the room response isn't as smooth as you might expect. In fact it appears to offer no real improvement.
Whatever you do with the bass, it seems that eq is still needed.
Regarding your concerns with output for home theatre, I'd say this concern is most prominent with the bass. This is the first place to look at. An important decision is the point at which you cross from dipole to monopole. For high output you could dispense with dipole bass below 80 Hz. You could choose some woofers and operate them from 80 - 300 Hz.
Here is a Phoenix HT speaker scaled up in output by the addition of 10" woofers:
¿GotJazz? said:
You can do some tests to find out if this will happen or not before you sit down to play them. Get the most demanding section you are likely to find and turn it up and have a close look at cone excursion. If you can see you have a problem, then you need to look into adding more woofers, etc.
¿GotJazz? said:
In such a large room it is easy for you to have space behind your surround dipoles. I see no reason why you can't use dipoles for all speakers. The only problem I see is bass output, but that isn't an issue with surrounds. You might consider making the rear surrounds with cheaper drivers though. Or if you build orions all around you save the cost of the 2nd 8" woofer. Consider this building block approach:
1. 4 x Linkwitz Orion crossing to your sub.
2. eq sub to get smooth response
3. Add woofers to the front main panels to extend down to 80 Hz and cross to the subs. The mids are now less stressed. Say use 2 x 10" woofers per side on the main dipole panels
4. To increase SPL output add a second subwoofer and double up on the main panels. (if needed) You may even wish to add woofers for your surrounds.
Where you are dealing with a well designed system such as the Orion, I think these are changes that are safer to make than modifying the Phoenix for the Seas drivers.
¿GotJazz? said:
SL sizes his amplifiers so that the bass amps clip before the woofers bottom.
Power amplifier limited SPL of a dipole woofer
Note that the Orion woofers operate into half space (+6dB) and that there are two of them (+6dB)
Orion amplifier choice
Guys - Thanks again for all the useful information! This is a great forum ...
Based upon your comments, I'm a little less concerned about blowing out my midrange/tweeter drivers. I was never really worried about killing the woofers.
I'm now reassessing my original plans, based upon your feedback. I don't think that I will be using any of the Orion drivers (though I would have liked to, since they are supposed to have significantly better characteristics for a similar price). I'm way too nervous to make significant modifications to the Phoenix crossovers to match the Seas drivers, since I haven't heard much back on my requests for anyone that has already usied the Seas drivers. My experience is too limited to try experimenting on my own.
So ... Here's my new plans:
1) Build a complete Phoenix with a pair of the dipole woofers.
2) Figure out how to blend the dipole woofers with my monopole Hsu Research TN-1220HO.
3) If I like the sound (I'd better!), I will then build 3 more Phoenix panels, without the woofers. I will also skip the low-pass portion of the crossovers, since they shouldn't be needed.
4) The three Phoenix panels would become my center channel and rears, so I would have 5 identical speakers for midrange and tweeter matching (Very important question: I have 4 runs of 16 guage wire running to each of the rear channels. I can't add any more wiring to the rears. As far as I can figure, this will work fine for the Phoenix rear panels - they only need a single powered pair for the tweeter and a single powered pair for the mid/woofer driver pair. Correct?)
Does this sound like a decent setup? I may be sacrificing extra clarity instead of using the Orions, but I guess I'll try and survive.
With this setup, I calculate that I'll need 12 channels of amplification (my Hsu Research has its own amp that I'm not including in this calculation). Is this right?
One concern I have is that surround speakers are expected to drive down to 80 Hz. I think that the Phoenix mid/woofer drivers drop off at 100 Hz. Will this be a problem?
I've got my first Phoenix parts on hold with Digikey ... waiting eagerly for your input!
PS: Paul, I'm guessing with your absolutely amazing system setup that you have the most understanding wife in the world!
Based upon your comments, I'm a little less concerned about blowing out my midrange/tweeter drivers. I was never really worried about killing the woofers.
I'm now reassessing my original plans, based upon your feedback. I don't think that I will be using any of the Orion drivers (though I would have liked to, since they are supposed to have significantly better characteristics for a similar price). I'm way too nervous to make significant modifications to the Phoenix crossovers to match the Seas drivers, since I haven't heard much back on my requests for anyone that has already usied the Seas drivers. My experience is too limited to try experimenting on my own.
So ... Here's my new plans:
1) Build a complete Phoenix with a pair of the dipole woofers.
2) Figure out how to blend the dipole woofers with my monopole Hsu Research TN-1220HO.
3) If I like the sound (I'd better!), I will then build 3 more Phoenix panels, without the woofers. I will also skip the low-pass portion of the crossovers, since they shouldn't be needed.
4) The three Phoenix panels would become my center channel and rears, so I would have 5 identical speakers for midrange and tweeter matching (Very important question: I have 4 runs of 16 guage wire running to each of the rear channels. I can't add any more wiring to the rears. As far as I can figure, this will work fine for the Phoenix rear panels - they only need a single powered pair for the tweeter and a single powered pair for the mid/woofer driver pair. Correct?)
Does this sound like a decent setup? I may be sacrificing extra clarity instead of using the Orions, but I guess I'll try and survive.
With this setup, I calculate that I'll need 12 channels of amplification (my Hsu Research has its own amp that I'm not including in this calculation). Is this right?
One concern I have is that surround speakers are expected to drive down to 80 Hz. I think that the Phoenix mid/woofer drivers drop off at 100 Hz. Will this be a problem?
I've got my first Phoenix parts on hold with Digikey ... waiting eagerly for your input!
PS: Paul, I'm guessing with your absolutely amazing system setup that you have the most understanding wife in the world!
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