Phoenix questions - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st August 2004, 05:44 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South. West.
Default Phoenix questions

Note: Please forgive any stoopid questions, I'm new to this ...

Background: I'm going to build Linkwitz Phoenix speakers for my first DIY speaker project. Long-term plans are to build the Orions afterwards, and then use the Phoenix as rear surround speakers. For better speaker matching, I think it would be best to use the same drivers in both the Phoenix and Orions. I now have the Phoenix plans / Orion Crossover boards. I am ready to make my driver purchases ...

So, here's my questions:

1) Is there any reason the Phoenix won't work well for a Home Theater system? I'm a little concerned about available SPL levels and possible blown drivers - which I haven't ever worried about before with my Martin Logan Quests.

2) Has anyone here built the Linkwitz Phoenix with the Orions SEAS drivers?

3) If so, what changes are made to the crossovers? How did you calculate the changes?

4) I already own a Hsu research TN-1220HO subwoofer, so I wasn't planning on building a subwoofer for the Phoenix. Is there any reason I shouldn't use the Hsu Research sub? It's a pretty amazing sub, going clean down to -3 db @ 16 Hz in my room. It's effortless and never overpowering (except during movie playback, occasionally)

5) If I keep the TN-1220, any ideas on how I might change the crossover to blend well with the Hsu subwoofer? I think that I may have to raise the TN-1220's crossover frequency (currently at 55 Hz), since the Phoenix appears to have a crossover at 100 Hz.

Thanks!
__________________
¿GotJazz?
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2004, 01:44 AM   #2
DougL is offline DougL  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wheaton IL.
Blog Entries: 30
QUOTE]1) Is there any reason the Phoenix won't work well for a Home Theater system? I'm a little concerned about available SPL levels and possible blown drivers - which I haven't ever worried about before with my Martin Logan Quests.[/QUOTE]

Linkwitz FAQ #3
Quote:
2) Has anyone here built the Linkwitz Phoenix with the Orions SEAS drivers?
Linkwitz FAQ #36
Quote:
4) I already own a Hsu research TN-1220HO subwoofer, so I wasn't planning on building a subwoofer for the Phoenix. Is there any reason I shouldn't use the Hsu Research sub? It's a pretty amazing sub, going clean down to -3 db @ 16 Hz in my room. It's effortless and never overpowering (except during movie playback, occasionally)
IMHO, the Phoenix is a 3 way that lacks a sub-woofer.
The dipole woofer is an important element of the system. If you cross over the Phoenix woofer to the sub at 40 Hz, the system should be useful for both music and home theater.

HTH

Doug
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2004, 03:56 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South. West.
Doug - Thanks for responding back. I had seen those answers on LinkwitzLab's site previously.

I already have the design plans for the Phoenix speakers. One of the things that Siegfried states on the Introduction page regarding the Seas drivers is, "I cannot provide you with the circuit changes that may become necessary, because I have never built this configuration."

So, I was hoping that someone here has done some research and tried building with the Seas drivers instead of the Scan-Speak drivers.

Also, thanks for your point on the Phoenix woofer - I guess I'll be building one now.
__________________
¿GotJazz?
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2004, 09:45 AM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Norway
I am also thinking about building the Phoenix. I don't see why you would use them as rears and the Orion's as fronts though?
The Phoenix is capable of a higher SPL than the Orion, which is just what you need for the fronts. And the Phoenix is not a bad speaker to my understanding, Mr Linkwitz states it is sonically almost identical to the Beethoven system...
As far as I can deduct from www.linkwitzlab.com, the Orion is a better speaker with the 8" Seas units than the Phoenix with the 8" ScanSpeak drivers. I asked Mr Linkwitz in an e-mail about using a ScanSpeak 99000 and the 8" Excel driver from the Orion in the Phoenix and here is the reply:

" You will be quite close with the 9900 and Seas 8" drivers. Have fun tweaking the last bit "

It seems you won't be that far off with the Seas 8" driver.

Here are some links about different Phoenix and Orion version:

http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/Digita...enix_Final.htm

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/gallery/s_1000/0008.html

http://www.mfk-projects.com/orio_n.htm

http://www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm

http://www.chriscaudle.com/phoenix.html

http://home.insightbb.com/~stephenwm...kwitz_Main.htm

http://www.geocities.com/linn_sondek2002/orion/

http://www.mfk-projects.com/

http://www.members.tripod.com/jimmcdougall/home.htm

http://members.iinet.net.au/~wallaroo/index.html

I do belive I will build the Phoenix with the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters and the 8" Seas Excel woofers. The reason for this is that I already have the ScanSpeak 99000 tweeters from another project. I can get the 8" Seas drivers cheap from a friend, so it is a given how my Phoenix will be. I also have 4 x 12" Peerless XLS woofer from a subwoofer I built some time ago, so I am almost Phoenix ready without even knowing it. If I wasn't, I would build the Orion. It is a bit smaller and more domestic. Also have eigth 8" aluminium woofers from Seas ( H0956 ) laying around from another subwoofer, will make two " Thor's " with these. Ie use the linkwitz transform and push them down the low 20 Hz's...
All this will be driven with a six channel ICE power 250 modules.
My woofers will be like this:

Each woofer:

On the bottom there will be an amp with 3 x ICE power and a 250W class A/B amp. This enclousure will be incorporated into an extended dipole woofer frame. Ie a taller sub.

Next we find the dipole woofer itself.

On top of that, with the same dimensions as the extended dipole sub and amp, we find the four 8" Thorish sub.

That will leave me with a stacked woofer system measuring 20"x20"x40". If I feel like redecorating, I can move position the woofers individually and have four boxes of 20" x 20" x 20" each.

The main Phoenix panels will be left like they are with a hefty speaker stand fixed to the frame.

Please keep in touch if and when you do decide to build the Phoenix. I am currently flat broke, but will start building the subs very soon. Will purchase and build the main panels at a later stage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2004, 02:03 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South. West.
Thanks, Dudster! Good information.

I suppose I could build 4 (or 5) Phoenixes for my surround system. It probably wouldn't suck too bad.

I got the impression that the Orions were significantly better, so I thought that I'd keep with that driver set. However, if adequate Home Theatre SPL will be a problem with the Orions, I may need to focus more on the Phoenix.

Has anyone here used the Orions for Home Theater? If so, do they get loud enough to reproduce the movie experience?

How about the Phoenix speakers for HT?
__________________
¿GotJazz?
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2004, 02:11 PM   #6
diyAudio Moderator
 
pinkmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chatham, England
I suspect that the Orions will be certainly dynamic enough for HT, but in a room big enough so the OBs have the space away from the walls they need to breathe, they may well not have the volume for a stupidly loud experience, but for the more normal of us I'm sure they'd be fine.
__________________
Rick: Oh Cliff / Sometimes it must be difficult not to feel as if / You really are a cliff / when fascists keep trying to push you over it! / Are they the lemmings / Or are you, Cliff? / Or are you Cliff?
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2004, 10:26 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
My understanding is that both can handle quite a lot of SPL, however they are bass limited. The main panels are quite efficient due to the output from the rear. The phoenix is very efficient from 250 Hz to the tweeter point. This isn't useable due the the efficiency limits of the bass and the tweeter. The Orion seems a smarter design as it uses just one 8" driver as two weren't really needed and it uses a higher order high pass filter. Rather than build the Phoenix, I think a better way to get high output might in fact be to use pairs of Orions if you want more output, but use the Phoenix woofer instead as the 12" xls in a W dipole gives better bang for buck.

For HT you should do room measurements to determine the lowest room mode as this will show you how high you can use your sub without needing eq for room modes. Ideally you would cross below the modal range of the room to a monopole subwoofer.

Why do this? Dipole bass is expensive and works best where there is room modes. For music you can mostly get away with dipoles but for home theatre you need crazy displacement to get down so low. For the ultimate I'd use dipoles in the modal range, then cross to infinite baffle.

What kind of movies do you like? For some movies you might find monopole bass more impressive.

Great project! I salute you for your courage and committment, this is a HUGE undertaking. You might search for a thread some months ago I started on ultimate HT and music speakers, which featured a phoenix HT system which was scaled up in size for higher SPL
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2004, 09:49 PM   #8
Ken L is offline Ken L  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: deep south
Quote:
Originally posted by pinkmouse
I suspect that the Orions will be certainly dynamic enough for HT, ......., they may well not have the volume for a stupidly loud experience....
Agreed -


Quote:
Originally posted by paulspencer
My understanding is that both can handle quite a lot of SPL, however they are bass limited. .....
Why do this? ........What kind of movies do you like? For some movies you might find monopole bass more impressive.

I just sold My Pheonix parts - I got into horns - and it looked like I wouldn't have the time and wouldn't want to spend the money to complete the Pheonix -


As a practical matter - the amplification and juice to run Pheonix or Orions for rears just is not feasible - Unless you have a ton of money and huge room - further - if you watch a wide range of movies that includes a lot of older stuff - IMHO, there just isn't that mutch information in the rear channels in most dvd's to warrant such an expenditure-

The Pheonix or Orion should do fine for fronts - if the room is larger - go with the Pheonix and if smaller Orion -

The shortcoming (if that's what it is) would be in the bass - the only negative comments I have seen about dipole bass is from a very few posters that believed they couldn't "feel" the bass as much as they should have - of course it may have been more accurate and honest but they appeared to be used to a "heavier" sound -

So - for HT you migh want sealed subs - for LFE - let's not forget that stands for Low Frequency Effects and seems to look, walk and talk like a musical subwoofer -but is actually a LFE sub in HT - similar but not the same--

Regards

Ken L
__________________
No longer powered by Linux - not enough apps and cross platform integration - but maybe one day
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2004, 11:10 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Menlo Park, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by �GotJazz?

I got the impression that the Orions were significantly better, so I thought that I'd keep with that driver set. However, if adequate Home Theatre SPL will be a problem with the Orions, I may need to focus more on the Phoenix.

Has anyone here used the Orions for Home Theater? If so, do they get loud enough to reproduce the movie experience?
1. Yes (13x19x8' room, 87x49" screen on one 13' wall, Orions 4' off screen wall 8' apart, seating 11' from screen).

2. They work fine at reference level. Dipole displacement requirements increase 8X/octave meaning output limits decrease at 18dB/octave. This means that you can't run your screen channels full-range. I've felt lazy and been using an 80Hz 2nd order high pass to avoid problems, but have picked Linkwitz Transform component values to implement a 40Hz 4th order XO. Woofer xmax is reached at 82dB @ 20Hz, 100dB @ 40Hz, and I think the midrange hits xmax at 109dB @ 80Hz.

Sitting farther away will also increase your volume requirements.

I played with http://www.linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xls in determining whether the Orions would suit my needs.

3. A phantom center works reasonably well at my main seating position within a few feet of center. Closer or farther off-axis you want a real center. I will eventually build another top section so I can sit at 9' for good scope transfers.

4. I don't think the fidelity and front speaker matching requirements are especially high for ambiance in the surround channels.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2004, 02:57 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken L
The shortcoming (if that's what it is) would be in the bass - the only negative comments I have seen about dipole bass is from a very few posters that believed they couldn't "feel" the bass as much as they should have - of course it may have been more accurate and honest but they appeared to be used to a "heavier" sound -
This is another reason why a monopole sub is a good idea - if youwant the bass to be a bit "heavier" (which in this case probably means less accurate) - then this gives you the flexibility. Raise the crossover point of the sub and you may find it a bit more fun for action movies and movies with a lot of bass.

One thing I have learnt about dipole bass is that it can be very fast (if you will excuse a controversial word) or it can also be boomy if not done right. I have a pair of thrown together computer speakers using some cheap drivers on an open baffle and they can go from one to the other depending on placement. Just a pair of 5.5" drivers on a 12 x 24" baffle with some eq @ 60 Hz.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
270W SHP Phoenix DC Tobey4 Parts 0 15th November 2007 10:19 AM
New Guy In Phoenix Mindcrime Introductions 1 19th April 2007 05:16 PM
Where to buy ele. components in Phoenix, AZ Fluke87 Parts 4 3rd April 2005 09:14 PM
Phoenix Gold ZX series amp questions theclerk Car Audio 0 24th February 2004 10:15 PM
Linkwitz Phoenix Oz_Audio Multi-Way 3 28th June 2002 07:27 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:24 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2