hello guys,
i have been running some simulations with the edge software diffractor for open baffle.
It's very hard to get the response flat (well within 1db)
but that's with the micro at 100meter. Knowing that i 'm sitting 3 meter from the speakers, makes it very difficult to get everything right.
I know that putten an EQ in the signal path isn't the most audiophile thing what you can do.
But what else, i have searched on the site and the digital EQ are good but the outcome of the topic was: don't do it.
What with analog EQ.
How do i get the response flatter ? or doesn't it matter that it sweeps (let us say in the worst condition 3db)
i have also seen in the simulation: if you take a lot of sourcepoints on the surface of the speaker, and you're off axis than the highs cancel each other: that's quite understanding i think. But if you use an open baffle than you certainly need a supertweeter, or may you not look at a speaker conus as radiating at a lot of places at the conus ? Or are a lot of guys not hearing well above 12-15khz ?
i have been running some simulations with the edge software diffractor for open baffle.
It's very hard to get the response flat (well within 1db)
but that's with the micro at 100meter. Knowing that i 'm sitting 3 meter from the speakers, makes it very difficult to get everything right.
I know that putten an EQ in the signal path isn't the most audiophile thing what you can do.
But what else, i have searched on the site and the digital EQ are good but the outcome of the topic was: don't do it.
What with analog EQ.
How do i get the response flatter ? or doesn't it matter that it sweeps (let us say in the worst condition 3db)
i have also seen in the simulation: if you take a lot of sourcepoints on the surface of the speaker, and you're off axis than the highs cancel each other: that's quite understanding i think. But if you use an open baffle than you certainly need a supertweeter, or may you not look at a speaker conus as radiating at a lot of places at the conus ? Or are a lot of guys not hearing well above 12-15khz ?
No doubt I don't hear as well as I did at 25, but in my estimation all that noise about EQ is just that, a lot of bogus noise.
Want to see something facinating? Get yourself a pro recording catalog. There will be things in there that defy imagination - equipment that creates sounds or changes sounds in every way imaginable.
All this stuff is between the performer and the recording you're listening to - miles of wire and hundreds (if not thousands) of components. And then your using EQ is going to destroy everything?
People act as though what's on the disk is inherently perfect - like a freeze dried orchestra waiting for you to add water. Far from it, it's been processed more than an Oscar Mayer hotdog, and half the sounds on most disks never actually existed in acoustic space until they've been played on your own home system.
Don't worry about EQ - just use it.
Want to see something facinating? Get yourself a pro recording catalog. There will be things in there that defy imagination - equipment that creates sounds or changes sounds in every way imaginable.
All this stuff is between the performer and the recording you're listening to - miles of wire and hundreds (if not thousands) of components. And then your using EQ is going to destroy everything?
People act as though what's on the disk is inherently perfect - like a freeze dried orchestra waiting for you to add water. Far from it, it's been processed more than an Oscar Mayer hotdog, and half the sounds on most disks never actually existed in acoustic space until they've been played on your own home system.
Don't worry about EQ - just use it.
Dude,
A ruler flat response is highly over rated as far as great sound is concerned. Even one that's flat on paper won't be when you put it in the typical room. Give your ears a change to listen to some music on them first, before you start throwing a bunch of electronics at it to flatten out a few ripples. The electronics are far more likely to more harm than good unless you have a problem than is audible with music playing.
I'll take a dipole response ripple over a boxy artificial sound any day of the week.
A ruler flat response is highly over rated as far as great sound is concerned. Even one that's flat on paper won't be when you put it in the typical room. Give your ears a change to listen to some music on them first, before you start throwing a bunch of electronics at it to flatten out a few ripples. The electronics are far more likely to more harm than good unless you have a problem than is audible with music playing.
I'll take a dipole response ripple over a boxy artificial sound any day of the week.
It's very hard to get the response flat
Dude,
if you ever took a look at what your room does to your speakers response, you would not care for 1 dB flat. And EDGE can give you only one aspect of the whole truth. Having EQ as an option is always good, but I would second wunhuanglo and johninCR: Build it, listen to it and then decide whether you really need that much EQ.
BTW: I´ve watched you discussing a lot of projects in this forum. Did anything emerge into the real world yet? What did I miss?
Rudolf
Dude,
if you ever took a look at what your room does to your speakers response, you would not care for 1 dB flat. And EDGE can give you only one aspect of the whole truth. Having EQ as an option is always good, but I would second wunhuanglo and johninCR: Build it, listen to it and then decide whether you really need that much EQ.
BTW: I´ve watched you discussing a lot of projects in this forum. Did anything emerge into the real world yet? What did I miss?
Rudolf
I actually get a reasonably flat response from my Goodmans 201's on open baffles (without EQ) but as others have already said, this is not absolutely esssential to produce a good performance.
The advice with OB's is to build them. Build them roughly and cheaply so that you can experiment with them and when you have something that works well, build a final version.
This is what I have done and I now have a speaker system that I am extremely happy with.
Dude, if you are not as lucky, then you can try EQ. But to be looking at EQ before building the baffles is getting a little ahead of yourself.
The advice with OB's is to build them. Build them roughly and cheaply so that you can experiment with them and when you have something that works well, build a final version.
This is what I have done and I now have a speaker system that I am extremely happy with.
Dude, if you are not as lucky, then you can try EQ. But to be looking at EQ before building the baffles is getting a little ahead of yourself.
thanx guys,
nuuk, thanx again for the italiavox drivers
Rudolf, hahahaah, great that you keep track of me, yes i'm a beginner and thinking of everything. that's true. I think it was you that i had a post about TQWT, but that didn't worked out.
I'm always thinking, never building, hahaha, but i need to study a lot about amps and speakers, and don't have much time.
I have been thinking about open baffle quite some time.
Now the storie goes : i have an NAD amp, and kef subs with kef satteliets; the nad goes rather well, the subs are bandpass and the satteliets are small sealed speaker.
A month ago i went with a friend to a second hand shop to buy furniture (everything very cheap, for students you know). And what did i saw there : hifi fidelity speakers of philips: two pairs of 2ways, i bought them both, 10 euro for the small pair, 12 euro for the biggen pair.
I listen to them and they sounded really wonderfull, like the b&o off a friend of mine, very clear, very fast, but no bass,;hahaha.
it was a two way with a 8 inch woofer mid crossed over at 2500hz to a 1 inch tweeter. it is rather sensitive (i estimate 95 db per meter). and can handle 20watt.
allright i thought let's connect them to the subs, they are bandpass and will roll of naturally about 400hz i think, but there is a crossover in the subs, that roll of at 120hz (i found on internet) don't know the slope.
Everything sounded much better, though the bass was there but not that loud, because the kefs arent that efficent, though it was quite good.
AND THEN IT HAPPEND; i was thinking, man good, but it can get better : bingo : open baffle : looked at the back, and yes : screws, something which you don't find on a lot new speakers, everything is glued and veneered. I unscrue the back, and start listing ; GOOD GOD what was this: indeed this was open baffle (or at least something like it, because the back was only open).
I started listing, everything was there. The mid-woofer was extremely fast, it has a very flexible rubber ring. Downside is that i put only 1 watt at it, but 95db on my ears is very loud i think.
I was really getting crazy, so i thought, man i'm sick or something, so i called some friends of mine, none of them audio minded, but good ears and honest. One guy came up my room sat down, and after ten seconds he asked: can you build me that. The soundstage was huge, very huge.
Then a called a guy, a good friend of mine, which gave me the bose power amp, the muscial fidelity ax1 and the trio tube amp.
The man himself has a unions research, a spark amp, b&w 805 completly moded and a rel strata III. He came in put a chesky recorded cd in (sara k) and start listing, after a minute he said to me, man this sound very good, you don't need anything else,
and indeed guys, it sounds very good.
but then again, have seen the light, or at least a ray, i start searching on ebay. I have already bought an visaton fullrange, well visaton, it's an coral one, (but with the name visaton) 16cm diameter, and i want to use it as a fullrange, supported by a technics ribbon and woofers to support it.
the woofers are from nightfire; i have long emails with the man hismelf, very friendly and very good knowing what he is doing, probably i'm gonna buy 4*12 inchers : pertivent; very good subs to put in an H enclosure.
But somehow, i feel afraid; i'm gonna build a closed woofer for my brother with the philips drivers, it wil sound very very good, (with a passive crossover) and the speaker won't be big . (he wants good sound but not big baffles or 3amps to power it)
my system gotta be active crossed, with all the amps that i have. just to try it. but i'm afraid after all the costs that my system will sound just a little bit better then my brothers one (his system i want to power with a tube amp). And to design crossovers isn't just exactly easy, but not extremely difficult and you can learn a lot from it. But as a 2496 costs second hand 250 euro, i thought of it as a descent replacment for crossover, a good active crossover for all the speaker willl cost 100 euro i suppose (i didn't even thought about it, just guessing). And with the beringer i can do a lot, since i'm a student i move a lot, every two year i'm somewhere else, and having something that can take the room in calculation is handy. (My room is gonna be treated with aucoustic foam). So that's why i thought of the digital crossover.
those it make sense now ?
hope so, i have red a lot about it allready, i think even it isn't the really high end, it won't drag my quality down, because there is a lot of room for improvement (also with the beringher i have an good DAC, my NAD cd player will probably be beaten).
hope rudolf didn't lost fate in me, because i did post a lot of treats which didn't result in something; but after the exams everything should be here (the woofers and so) i will take pictures of everything, and probably a lot more questions will arise
thanx guys for the interest
greetings
nuuk, thanx again for the italiavox drivers
Rudolf, hahahaah, great that you keep track of me, yes i'm a beginner and thinking of everything. that's true. I think it was you that i had a post about TQWT, but that didn't worked out.
I'm always thinking, never building, hahaha, but i need to study a lot about amps and speakers, and don't have much time.
I have been thinking about open baffle quite some time.
Now the storie goes : i have an NAD amp, and kef subs with kef satteliets; the nad goes rather well, the subs are bandpass and the satteliets are small sealed speaker.
A month ago i went with a friend to a second hand shop to buy furniture (everything very cheap, for students you know). And what did i saw there : hifi fidelity speakers of philips: two pairs of 2ways, i bought them both, 10 euro for the small pair, 12 euro for the biggen pair.
I listen to them and they sounded really wonderfull, like the b&o off a friend of mine, very clear, very fast, but no bass,;hahaha.
it was a two way with a 8 inch woofer mid crossed over at 2500hz to a 1 inch tweeter. it is rather sensitive (i estimate 95 db per meter). and can handle 20watt.
allright i thought let's connect them to the subs, they are bandpass and will roll of naturally about 400hz i think, but there is a crossover in the subs, that roll of at 120hz (i found on internet) don't know the slope.
Everything sounded much better, though the bass was there but not that loud, because the kefs arent that efficent, though it was quite good.
AND THEN IT HAPPEND; i was thinking, man good, but it can get better : bingo : open baffle : looked at the back, and yes : screws, something which you don't find on a lot new speakers, everything is glued and veneered. I unscrue the back, and start listing ; GOOD GOD what was this: indeed this was open baffle (or at least something like it, because the back was only open).
I started listing, everything was there. The mid-woofer was extremely fast, it has a very flexible rubber ring. Downside is that i put only 1 watt at it, but 95db on my ears is very loud i think.
I was really getting crazy, so i thought, man i'm sick or something, so i called some friends of mine, none of them audio minded, but good ears and honest. One guy came up my room sat down, and after ten seconds he asked: can you build me that. The soundstage was huge, very huge.
Then a called a guy, a good friend of mine, which gave me the bose power amp, the muscial fidelity ax1 and the trio tube amp.
The man himself has a unions research, a spark amp, b&w 805 completly moded and a rel strata III. He came in put a chesky recorded cd in (sara k) and start listing, after a minute he said to me, man this sound very good, you don't need anything else,
and indeed guys, it sounds very good.
but then again, have seen the light, or at least a ray, i start searching on ebay. I have already bought an visaton fullrange, well visaton, it's an coral one, (but with the name visaton) 16cm diameter, and i want to use it as a fullrange, supported by a technics ribbon and woofers to support it.
the woofers are from nightfire; i have long emails with the man hismelf, very friendly and very good knowing what he is doing, probably i'm gonna buy 4*12 inchers : pertivent; very good subs to put in an H enclosure.
But somehow, i feel afraid; i'm gonna build a closed woofer for my brother with the philips drivers, it wil sound very very good, (with a passive crossover) and the speaker won't be big . (he wants good sound but not big baffles or 3amps to power it)
my system gotta be active crossed, with all the amps that i have. just to try it. but i'm afraid after all the costs that my system will sound just a little bit better then my brothers one (his system i want to power with a tube amp). And to design crossovers isn't just exactly easy, but not extremely difficult and you can learn a lot from it. But as a 2496 costs second hand 250 euro, i thought of it as a descent replacment for crossover, a good active crossover for all the speaker willl cost 100 euro i suppose (i didn't even thought about it, just guessing). And with the beringer i can do a lot, since i'm a student i move a lot, every two year i'm somewhere else, and having something that can take the room in calculation is handy. (My room is gonna be treated with aucoustic foam). So that's why i thought of the digital crossover.
those it make sense now ?
hope so, i have red a lot about it allready, i think even it isn't the really high end, it won't drag my quality down, because there is a lot of room for improvement (also with the beringher i have an good DAC, my NAD cd player will probably be beaten).
hope rudolf didn't lost fate in me, because i did post a lot of treats which didn't result in something; but after the exams everything should be here (the woofers and so) i will take pictures of everything, and probably a lot more questions will arise
thanx guys for the interest
greetings
EQ and Response
johninCR's comment about flat response is true, as far as it goes.
My current opinion is that a flat response at the listening position in the actual room the speakers are used in is the only way you get to what's on the recording (for good or ill).
I personally use all Rane processors and Crown amps. I use a Rane stereo 31 band EQ and a Rane RTA to flatten the system.
If i was starting out all over again (and the way things go I'm just an eBay sell-off of what I have now away) I'd go with the Behringer "does-everything" (can't remember the model number).
You definitely need the RTA function in addition to the EQ to be successful.
Digital vs analog? In practical terms a non-issue when considering quality componets, aside from the fact that you can obviously get a lot more for less $ going digital.
johninCR's comment about flat response is true, as far as it goes.
My current opinion is that a flat response at the listening position in the actual room the speakers are used in is the only way you get to what's on the recording (for good or ill).
I personally use all Rane processors and Crown amps. I use a Rane stereo 31 band EQ and a Rane RTA to flatten the system.
If i was starting out all over again (and the way things go I'm just an eBay sell-off of what I have now away) I'd go with the Behringer "does-everything" (can't remember the model number).
You definitely need the RTA function in addition to the EQ to be successful.
Digital vs analog? In practical terms a non-issue when considering quality componets, aside from the fact that you can obviously get a lot more for less $ going digital.
then_dude,then_dude said:
If your speaker doesn't have a phase plug, you might consider building one for it. This helps prevent the cancelation/reenforcement modes that can happen with a wide driver being used to create highs. I've done this to several drivers. It really works! The highs are both cleaner and flatter.
Dave
interesting, the phase plug thing, it's true that the corals beta have this, mine doesn't, i'll google a bit on that one( an also on the site offcourse)
thanx for the digital response, i think i'm gonna buy one, i have just talked with a belgium guy who has it. And for the money you can't go wrong i think.
thanx, greetings
thanx for the digital response, i think i'm gonna buy one, i have just talked with a belgium guy who has it. And for the money you can't go wrong i think.
thanx, greetings
hope rudolf didn't lost fate in me
Not at all, then_dude!
I now think I understand where you are going. Seems to be the DIY spirit at its best.
And obviously some digital EQ with a RTA function (Behringer Ultra Curve 2496) as wunhuanglo recommended would be a great help.
There is one aspect I would like to comment: There seem to be a lot of people in diy audio who excessively discuss best quality speakers or best reproduction concepts but seldom achieve anything in the real world. What a pity! I understand - if you are laying out big money you are concerned about doing it right.
I personally get much more fun from trying reasonably priced components and getting the most from them. If I fail, at least it doesn´t hurt much. If I win, my competence reaches a new level, from where to start again - and possibly with higher quality components.
Only if I have some running system I know what I miss and where to head to.
The single most effective step forward for me has been accurate positioning of the speakers (and myself) in the room. Cost me nothing except some reading and thinking, but is a very efficient kind of equalisation other people have to buy EQ for .
Keep on, then_dude, you are on a good way
Greetings
Rudolf
Not at all, then_dude!
I now think I understand where you are going. Seems to be the DIY spirit at its best.
And obviously some digital EQ with a RTA function (Behringer Ultra Curve 2496) as wunhuanglo recommended would be a great help.
There is one aspect I would like to comment: There seem to be a lot of people in diy audio who excessively discuss best quality speakers or best reproduction concepts but seldom achieve anything in the real world. What a pity! I understand - if you are laying out big money you are concerned about doing it right.
I personally get much more fun from trying reasonably priced components and getting the most from them. If I fail, at least it doesn´t hurt much. If I win, my competence reaches a new level, from where to start again - and possibly with higher quality components.
Only if I have some running system I know what I miss and where to head to.
The single most effective step forward for me has been accurate positioning of the speakers (and myself) in the room. Cost me nothing except some reading and thinking, but is a very efficient kind of equalisation other people have to buy EQ for
.Keep on, then_dude, you are on a good way
Greetings
Rudolf
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