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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

EQ open baffle or not ?
EQ open baffle or not ?
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Old 20th August 2004, 01:00 AM   #1
then_dude is offline then_dude  Belgium
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Default EQ open baffle or not ?

hello guys,

i have been running some simulations with the edge software diffractor for open baffle.

It's very hard to get the response flat (well within 1db)
but that's with the micro at 100meter. Knowing that i 'm sitting 3 meter from the speakers, makes it very difficult to get everything right.

I know that putten an EQ in the signal path isn't the most audiophile thing what you can do.

But what else, i have searched on the site and the digital EQ are good but the outcome of the topic was: don't do it.

What with analog EQ.

How do i get the response flatter ? or doesn't it matter that it sweeps (let us say in the worst condition 3db)

i have also seen in the simulation: if you take a lot of sourcepoints on the surface of the speaker, and you're off axis than the highs cancel each other: that's quite understanding i think. But if you use an open baffle than you certainly need a supertweeter, or may you not look at a speaker conus as radiating at a lot of places at the conus ? Or are a lot of guys not hearing well above 12-15khz ?
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Old 20th August 2004, 01:13 AM   #2
Nelson Pass is offline Nelson Pass  United States
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EQ open baffle or not ?
Behringer makes a parametric equalizer for $89/ch. At
that price maybe you can try it out. It won't get rid of
diffraction, but you never really know how anything is going
to sound until you build it and listen.
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Old 20th August 2004, 01:14 AM   #3
wunhuanglo is offline wunhuanglo  United States
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No doubt I don't hear as well as I did at 25, but in my estimation all that noise about EQ is just that, a lot of bogus noise.

Want to see something facinating? Get yourself a pro recording catalog. There will be things in there that defy imagination - equipment that creates sounds or changes sounds in every way imaginable.

All this stuff is between the performer and the recording you're listening to - miles of wire and hundreds (if not thousands) of components. And then your using EQ is going to destroy everything?

People act as though what's on the disk is inherently perfect - like a freeze dried orchestra waiting for you to add water. Far from it, it's been processed more than an Oscar Mayer hotdog, and half the sounds on most disks never actually existed in acoustic space until they've been played on your own home system.

Don't worry about EQ - just use it.
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Old 20th August 2004, 01:39 AM   #4
then_dude is offline then_dude  Belgium
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if i'm gonna use it, (and i would like to try)

what would i have to use ?

a good analoge or a digital ?

i know behringer has one, (they have a lot, like 8024) but i don't know, maybe better an analog ?
i will buy it second hand probably.

thanx guys
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Old 20th August 2004, 01:47 AM   #5
jdybnis is offline jdybnis  United States
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Can you post a link to the threads on digital EQ you found

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Old 20th August 2004, 02:08 AM   #6
johninCR is offline johninCR  United States
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A ruler flat response is highly over rated as far as great sound is concerned. Even one that's flat on paper won't be when you put it in the typical room. Give your ears a change to listen to some music on them first, before you start throwing a bunch of electronics at it to flatten out a few ripples. The electronics are far more likely to more harm than good unless you have a problem than is audible with music playing.

I'll take a dipole response ripple over a boxy artificial sound any day of the week.
Everyone has a photographic memory. It's just that most are out of film.
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Old 20th August 2004, 05:53 AM   #7
sfdoddsy is offline sfdoddsy  New Zealand
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Many people (including me) use digital EQs with great results with open baffles. The cheapest is the behringer DCX2496. Others are the dbx Driverack series. Do a search here or at madisound and you will find lots of info.

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Old 20th August 2004, 08:28 AM   #8
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Default It's very hard to get the response flat


if you ever took a look at what your room does to your speakers response, you would not care for 1 dB flat. And EDGE can give you only one aspect of the whole truth. Having EQ as an option is always good, but I would second wunhuanglo and johninCR: Build it, listen to it and then decide whether you really need that much EQ.

BTW: Ive watched you discussing a lot of projects in this forum. Did anything emerge into the real world yet? What did I miss?

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Old 20th August 2004, 09:33 AM   #9
Nuuk is offline Nuuk  United Kingdom
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I actually get a reasonably flat response from my Goodmans 201's on open baffles (without EQ) but as others have already said, this is not absolutely esssential to produce a good performance.

The advice with OB's is to build them. Build them roughly and cheaply so that you can experiment with them and when you have something that works well, build a final version.

This is what I have done and I now have a speaker system that I am extremely happy with.

Dude, if you are not as lucky, then you can try EQ. But to be looking at EQ before building the baffles is getting a little ahead of yourself.
The truth need not be veiled, for it veils itself from the eyes of the ignorant.
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Old 20th August 2004, 10:14 AM   #10
then_dude is offline then_dude  Belgium
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thanx guys,

nuuk, thanx again for the italiavox drivers

Rudolf, hahahaah, great that you keep track of me, yes i'm a beginner and thinking of everything. that's true. I think it was you that i had a post about TQWT, but that didn't worked out.

I'm always thinking, never building, hahaha, but i need to study a lot about amps and speakers, and don't have much time.

I have been thinking about open baffle quite some time.
Now the storie goes : i have an NAD amp, and kef subs with kef satteliets; the nad goes rather well, the subs are bandpass and the satteliets are small sealed speaker.

A month ago i went with a friend to a second hand shop to buy furniture (everything very cheap, for students you know). And what did i saw there : hifi fidelity speakers of philips: two pairs of 2ways, i bought them both, 10 euro for the small pair, 12 euro for the biggen pair.

I listen to them and they sounded really wonderfull, like the b&o off a friend of mine, very clear, very fast, but no bass,;hahaha.

it was a two way with a 8 inch woofer mid crossed over at 2500hz to a 1 inch tweeter. it is rather sensitive (i estimate 95 db per meter). and can handle 20watt.

allright i thought let's connect them to the subs, they are bandpass and will roll of naturally about 400hz i think, but there is a crossover in the subs, that roll of at 120hz (i found on internet) don't know the slope.

Everything sounded much better, though the bass was there but not that loud, because the kefs arent that efficent, though it was quite good.

AND THEN IT HAPPEND; i was thinking, man good, but it can get better : bingo : open baffle : looked at the back, and yes : screws, something which you don't find on a lot new speakers, everything is glued and veneered. I unscrue the back, and start listing ; GOOD GOD what was this: indeed this was open baffle (or at least something like it, because the back was only open).

I started listing, everything was there. The mid-woofer was extremely fast, it has a very flexible rubber ring. Downside is that i put only 1 watt at it, but 95db on my ears is very loud i think.

I was really getting crazy, so i thought, man i'm sick or something, so i called some friends of mine, none of them audio minded, but good ears and honest. One guy came up my room sat down, and after ten seconds he asked: can you build me that. The soundstage was huge, very huge.

Then a called a guy, a good friend of mine, which gave me the bose power amp, the muscial fidelity ax1 and the trio tube amp.
The man himself has a unions research, a spark amp, b&w 805 completly moded and a rel strata III. He came in put a chesky recorded cd in (sara k) and start listing, after a minute he said to me, man this sound very good, you don't need anything else,

and indeed guys, it sounds very good.

but then again, have seen the light, or at least a ray, i start searching on ebay. I have already bought an visaton fullrange, well visaton, it's an coral one, (but with the name visaton) 16cm diameter, and i want to use it as a fullrange, supported by a technics ribbon and woofers to support it.

the woofers are from nightfire; i have long emails with the man hismelf, very friendly and very good knowing what he is doing, probably i'm gonna buy 4*12 inchers : pertivent; very good subs to put in an H enclosure.

But somehow, i feel afraid; i'm gonna build a closed woofer for my brother with the philips drivers, it wil sound very very good, (with a passive crossover) and the speaker won't be big . (he wants good sound but not big baffles or 3amps to power it)

my system gotta be active crossed, with all the amps that i have. just to try it. but i'm afraid after all the costs that my system will sound just a little bit better then my brothers one (his system i want to power with a tube amp). And to design crossovers isn't just exactly easy, but not extremely difficult and you can learn a lot from it. But as a 2496 costs second hand 250 euro, i thought of it as a descent replacment for crossover, a good active crossover for all the speaker willl cost 100 euro i suppose (i didn't even thought about it, just guessing). And with the beringer i can do a lot, since i'm a student i move a lot, every two year i'm somewhere else, and having something that can take the room in calculation is handy. (My room is gonna be treated with aucoustic foam). So that's why i thought of the digital crossover.

those it make sense now ?
hope so, i have red a lot about it allready, i think even it isn't the really high end, it won't drag my quality down, because there is a lot of room for improvement (also with the beringher i have an good DAC, my NAD cd player will probably be beaten).

hope rudolf didn't lost fate in me, because i did post a lot of treats which didn't result in something; but after the exams everything should be here (the woofers and so) i will take pictures of everything, and probably a lot more questions will arise

thanx guys for the interest
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